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tline3open  Is this American Colonial? Or British Provincial?

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Author Topic:   Is this American Colonial? Or British Provincial?
asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-19-2016 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have this Hanoverian Rattail spoon coming soon. I normally don't buy pieces that I cannot identify, but this is definitely 18th century and looks to be a great example!

I only have a picture of the marks:

Can anyone help?

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 10-20-2016 06:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm afraid I don't recognise either mark. I tend to assume that a heart shaped cartouche for the initials is quite likely to mean an American origin but that is not based on any real knowledge of American practice..

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-20-2016 10:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you agphile, I actually think it's American, too. (based on the heart)
My gut is saying New York, but I don't have any references for NY. It's not in Kane for Massachusetts, and not in my Connecticut book or Virginia book.

I'm stumped so far.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 10-20-2016 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anything is possible, but I am not sure that the heart shape by itself provides identification of it being colonial American. I have seen heart shapes in makers marks from other countries as well. I look forward to learning what this one is, whether it is American or something else.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-20-2016 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's got the typical double monogram of the period, plus an engraved date of 1743, which, being a rat tail also makes me think American. But I agree, anything is possible at this point.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-21-2016 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Arrived today, here are some fresh pictures:

It has a really large, deep bowl. A wide stem and definitely has a regional look.

Anyone have any ideas as to location?

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 10-22-2016 02:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not know the maker of your spoon, but the one mark has the look of either a Chevron insignia or a stylized tree.

None of the WS marks that are in my books are in a heart as in your spoon.

In any event you have a great spoon with very interesting marks.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-22-2016 10:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for checking and the compliment! smile

Here's the last bit of information I can add:

A scan of the composition.

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 10-23-2016 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The tree reminds me of the Pine Tree flag. Could this be New England, Maine maybe? (Tho' Maine was Massachusetts back then.)

It's a wonderful spoon.......

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-24-2016 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, seaduck. smile

This is definitely a mystery piece. I forgot to mention that the scan shown is from the top of the handle, but near the rat tail, it read 96% silver, I was thinking a Britannia standard piece possibly melted down with other coins, etc would make it range from 94.5 to 96%?

I hoped for 90% to confirm a colonial origin, but I'm holding out that it's still a colonial piece.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 10-24-2016 10:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have never used such a hand held device.... it seems very cool and I want one.

I expect its has similar issues to full X-ray Fluorescence. If you don't test a sample taken from below the surface it is not going to really tell anything about all the metal.

For example, an item which has been pickled could show higher silver content and less trace elements. Burnishing may also do something similar.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 10-24-2016 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suspect that silversmiths, in areas where assaying was not required, often melted down whatever silver they could get their hands on to make new pieces. The purchaser may well have brought his own silver pieces in and told the silversmith make me something new.

Your x-ray machine is fascinating. I gather it would take a slightly different reading on different parts of the object.

Has anyone seen results from tests on English or French silver. Would one expect to find trace elements in their silver?

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-24-2016 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Indeed I scanned a few places on the spoon and the reading shown was the lowest. It read 96% near the rat tail.

As for the scanning, it goes a certain depth, so say, Sheffield plate would read good, but electroplate may not.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 10-25-2016 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have not seen or remember seeing comparisons of scans on English, American or continental - comparisons of American in one of the more recent books (Kane?). But I do know that all scans on alloyed silver show trace elements. When I melt/sell my scrap the refiner does 3 core samples from the ingot and there are small differences from the 3. Only chemically purified or electro deposit silver will be close to 999. Sterling will always have other metals from the mining or smelting.

This spoon has niggled at me since it was posted. You who know me know I am no expert ( say that fast 3 times). But it just has a feel that seems continental to me. The form, weight, marks and engraving. Also the spoon has a sophistication of making that says it comes from a shop that made a lot of these...

There I've said it and I will be thrilled when the expert says it is a West Country hold over Britannia or Kingston Jamaica!

[This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 10-25-2016).]

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-26-2016 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello agleopar! Good to see you in here. smile
This spoon has a nice weight and is incredibly well made. It's been fun so far trying to figure out by who and where this was made!

I will add, although probably hard to tell in the photos, there are subtle hammer marks equally covering the entire spoon, bowl and handle. You can only see them in the reflection of something in the distance, but it's a little unusual. (although original) not a repair or anything. Just perhaps another clue as to the maker?

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 10-27-2016 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Asheland and yes subtle hammer marks showing are a little different, perhaps showing that this spoon has had very little use/wear.it does look very crisp!

I did see something in the image of the engraving.
Looking closely my thought was it was the polished surface after the scraping to remove hammer marks. By scraping I mean a technique where you pull a sharp steel edge with a handle toward you and it evens out the highs and lows of the hammer marks. This is done instead of filing and in the right hands is faster
I learned it from Heiki Seppa a Finish smith who spent a few years at Jensens before coming to teach here and have a great influence on contemporary American smithing.

After the scraping if it is polished without stoning the chatter of the scrape marks can sometimes be seen.

All this to say what I imagined but you are holding the spoon and so have the evidence.

I do hope someone will come up with the maker/country soon!

I'm adding a P.S. Because, although I can't tell from the images, it seems possible that the spoon has even fire scale which means that it was not scraped (there is a better word for this technique, I can not remember) and it would be the original hammer marks.

[This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 10-27-2016).]

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 10-28-2016 09:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a small amount of firescale and I believe that you can see the hammer marks AND scraping, both. I imagined just that, the marks I see are from the filing.

(I love the silversmithing craft) smile


It's crisp and has virtually no wear (the bowl is perfect) yet it has the sufficient patina to prove authenticity and age.

I'm happy to have stumbled across this piece!

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Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1792
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 10-31-2016 08:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
not sure if this has anything to do with the mark on your spoon, but i found this on google books. from a periodical called "The Connoisseur: an Illustrated Magazine for Collectors". This is from the Jan.-Apr. 1906 issue:

The referenced piece is from 1693, a half-century before the engraved date of your spoon. One would think anybody active that long would be in a reference book somewhere. Unless the spoon was engraved at a later time than its production. How many smiths were using a WS in a heart mark in the late 17th/early 18th century?

[This message has been edited by Paul Lemieux (edited 10-31-2016).]

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agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 11-01-2016 05:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How nice to see an article from the days when silver plate meant silver, not base metal plated with silver. The piece by WS being dated to 1693 suggests that it had a full set of London hallmarks so not to do with the WS using a single device as a town or workshop mark (though silversmiths have been known to move out of London, of course).

The style and orientation of the engraving on the spoon is not typically English. However, the engraved date is consistent with the probable date of the spoon if it was made somewhere where fashions were not too out of line with those prevailing in England. Generally speaking you will not find English Hanoverian spoons much earlier than 1710, and a spoon much earlier than 1740 is likely to have a more pronounced stem ridge than I can see on this spoon.

It would be nice if it was the same WS but I think Paul is right to wonder about the likelihood of a 50-year working life. I can suggest an (unlikely) straw to clutch at. If the son of WS shared the same initials and followed the same trade but emigrated, he might have continued to use his father’s punch. There are examples in the English provinces of marks being shared in this way.

However, there is something about the shape of the spoon that makes me think the smith was working in a continental tradition rather than an English one.

[This message has been edited by agphile (edited 11-01-2016).]

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-01-2016 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was trying to glean something from the engraving and the more I look at the style, especially the number 1, the more I keep thinking it is continental. That extreme upstroke to begin the number 1 reminds me of continental styling.

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 11-01-2016 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Indeed this spoon has a regional look. I have several London examples and they look different when compared to this.

This is indeed a mystery piece so far! smile

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 01-17-2017 11:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by asheland posted 01-17-2017 10:58 AM:
I thought I'd try this one again and see if anyone might know this maker.
I cannot find anything conclusive.

It's a Hanoverian Rattail tablespoon.


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