posted 08-29-2001 10:51 PM            

Here is another long-overdue picture post. Note the shape of the spoon; this style is very much in the French taste. On the top of the handle you can see the "cloth mark" or counterstrike, opposite the Minerva head on the back. Vintage French flatware usually has these marks.

The head of Minerva in this shape surround signifies the French first standard, or 950/1000 pure silver. This particular stamp looks a little fishy to me, but the cloth mark certainly looks genuine.

I showed this to the proprietors of the As You Like It Silver Shop in New Orleans, and they pronounced it a French piece. I figure they should know!

At any rate, an interesting piece of flatware!

posted 01-21-2002 03:04 PM            

Indeed, if the spoon were a legal export from France it would have to bear not the Minerve mark but the head of Mercury, a very different mark.

Also, the spoon does not appear to be of true French manufacture -- certainly not Parisian, the likeliest candidate for export. The bowl, especially, is the wrong shape and appears too thin.

I'd bet a silver teaspoon that this was made in New Orleans by H&G or someone working for them, copying a genuine French spoon. The only question is why .... Maybe it was a replacement piece, but in that case why the trouble to copy the mark, too?

posted 01-25-2002 01:30 PM            

1.) As you say, the spoon is of lighter gauge than one would expect from a French maker.

2.) The Minerve head does look wrong, even in a worn condition as it is. Also, there should be a numeral 1 to the side of the head to denote the first standard, and it is NOT present.

Right now, as I was in the beginning, I am leaning towards a conclusion that this is not a French-made spoon.

The possibility that this was made elsewhere in Europe and wholesaled through a French middleman is intriguing. The form, though, looks more French to me than middle-European.
I have seen other American-made silver spoons with this form, notably by Chaudron's & Rasch of Philadelphia, who specialized in silver of the latest French style. I still think it likely that this spoon was actually made in the US, in the French style, and given fake French marks. Anthony Rasch was working in New Orleans from the 1830's to the 1850's, and is a possible culprit in this caper.

Thank you for all of your input and expertise!

posted 11-14-2005 11:18 AM            

quote:

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Adolphe Himmel Sr.
Author: F V Stiles

A note from: Fran Stiles <xnursefran@netzero.com>
GGgrandaughter of Adolphe Himmel
Can anyone help me with more info on European training during ealry 1800's? I would like to find more on his early life.

Background -

- name sake-> Himmel Park Tucson, Az.; Immigrated from Austria, by way of France. {possibly exiled due to Austrian Habsburg {Duke] aristocracy. He changed his name to Himmel, the Saxon equivalent of "Smith", to become anonymous.

Adolphe Himmel - silversmith - born in 1826, Arrive in New Orleans in .1852. 1861 New Orleans City Directory (Ancestry); was found in the New Orleans, 1875- census; listed with a Daniel Rhem, 260 Union Street.,
found a death certificate for a A. Himmel, 51yrs, Aug 21, 1877. [pg 695, vol 69]

The book also gives his various partnerships:

• With Kuchler & Himmel 1852-53
  
• With Hyde & Goodrich 1853-186l
  
• With Thomas, Griswold & Co. 1861-65
  
• With A.B. Girswold & Co. 1865-b9
  
• With A. Himmel Silverware Manufactory 1.869-77

Himmel worked alone and later with Kuchler, then Hyde & Goodrich, and AB Griswold.

ADOLPHE HIMMEL
The large incised "H" appearing on Hyde & Goodrich pieces is the mark of Adolphe Himmel.

Himmel, according to family tradition, was born in Zweibriicken.? Germany. For reasons now obscure, but undoubtedly connected with the political turmoil in 1844 he left Germany and changed his name to Himmel in order to escape detection He was so thorough in obscuring his true identity that his actual surname has not yet been discovered.

Himmel fist appears in the New Orleans directories for 1852, in partnership with Chrestopf Christian Kuchler. This partnership. although active only briefly, produced pieces bearing only the Kuchler & Himmel mark, as well as those articles retailed through Hyde & Goodrich. In 1853, the partnership was dissolved.

Himmel began manufacturing exclusively for Hyde & Goodrich, he was not the sole supplier to the firm. Pieces from this period also bear the mark of Kuchler.

After 1855, Himmel's operation on the corner of Bienville and Derbigny Streets appears to have been the exclusive supplier of locally made hollow ware for Hyde & Goodrich and its successor.

Thomas, Griswold & Co.. later A.B. Griswold & Co. Himmel continued as chief silversmith for A.B. Griswold & t until roughly 1869.

In 1869, Himmel moved his operations from the corner of Bienville and Derbigny Streets to Poydras Street, and worked there until his death in 1877.
Hammer's business was taken over try Henry Hausmann, a former business associate of Himmel.

Himmel is known to have traveled to New York. Certain of his designs are evidently based on pieces produced by Tiffany, Young & Ellis and Tiffany & Co. of New York during the 1850s.

• Harriette Fallon Himmel or spelling -Fallen-Felen, was supposed to be from France,[?Paris] Married to Adolphe Himmel
  Children: -
  
• Bertha Casius Himmel, Married Emmile Laroussini, 5/18/ 1877;
  children -
  Rita Madge 5/3/1885 in Louisiana;
  son - Artur Frederikeick 3/1/1889;
  Charles Pius 11/21/1892;
  
• Henretta Himmel - b. 1/24/1858
  
• Adolph Himmel {son] 8/8/1853, born in Terreboune La.; also listed in 1910 census in Spokane Wash., another census San Francisco, Ca; @ 30 yrs old, listed in marriage index as having married Margaret Smith, 23 yrs old, 12/6/1883;
  
• Fredrick Himmel,
  
• John Edward Himmel, 1859
  
• Harriet Alvina Himmel Edmondmon (Momie Frances' mother] 7/27/1869 - 1/11/1948 [78yrs] born in New Orleans, Louisiana; must have been 8 years old when father died.
  Homesteaded in Tucson Ariz, 2625 E. 1st St.;

-----------------------

1961 - grandmother contacted ----- great nieces. They are named Yvonne and Bertha. They live in New Orleans

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posted 11-23-2005 12:31 AM            

As someone who has handled a little bit of 19th century silver exported from France, I can say that the spoon is French. Some of the silver I see when I do appraisals, has an export mark only, and some has just the minerva head with the countermark.

We would think that the French in France, would want to sell silver to the French derived folks in New Orleans, and what better way to do it than through the largest comercial silver dealer in the area.

But.. there are alwys slick charactors who try, and sometimes succeed in making a quick buck at someone elses expense, and with electroplating just getting its good start, who knows what happened.

posted 05-28-2008 10:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Brent:
On the opposite side of the handle is the "cloth mark" you often see on French flatware.

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My understanding from reading Tardy's is that the impression on the back side of the French silver quality marks is from the anvil that the object being marked rested on when the punch was used, but maybe we're both saying the same thing with different words. No doubt you know better.