posted 08-29-2006 10:29 AM            

You are wise to do what you can to document and verify your tankard and it looks as if you are prepared to meet and deal with any difficulties you may encounter. I would have thought they would have been delighted to have you bring in your tankard and meet it's possible mate. Thanks for keeping us posted. Has the lock been removed from the tankard?

posted 08-30-2006 06:17 AM            

Having found a good piece several years ago, just as you have, you will find that the folks here offer the best advice, I have proof....!

Also it appears that we have another “Silverphile” in our midst... :-) Welcome to our malady...

Having said that, you have two beautiful pieces that your family should cherish as heirlooms from now on.

Make sure you collect all of the history and document these pieces in two different places in case of disaster (fire, flood etc), Keep one in a safe deposit box, or another family member you trust in a different state, and keep them updated as new information is collected.

Identify these in you will as a specific item with clear instructions as to where it is to go and I suggest that you chose someone with reverence for your family history, and the financial where-with-all to insure the piece does not end up lost, due to failure to secure it properly, or financial need.

I have struggled with the same issues and have personally decided to create a living family trust as no one in my immediate family has shown any particular interest in preserving my collection. I have funded this with a simple life insurance policy (single premium) I paid for, that when the proceeds are paid out, that the funds are sufficient for the interest on the principal to maintain the continued cost of the trust for the foreseeable future. I have arranged that the control be vested in the trust department within a large (financially secure) financial institution, with specific instructions as to the ownership while in the trust, and instructions for disposal of the property inline with my wishes, if and when the trust is ever challenged in the future.

The details you can work out with a reputable financial planner and/or your banks trust department and your attorney.

Families get funny when inheritance comes into play, and there is always one that thinks they have been cheated or are convinced that they can get some additional value in some cases.

I mention all this, as there are practicalities of being possession of a significant piece of history that you want to maintain for posterity, and there is no way to predict the future, nor the sensibilities of future generations.

You must assume you are the only one in your family that will have the same passion for this and the future generations of your family that do appreciate these artifacts may speak kindly of you for this insight.

We are simply the stewards of this history...

Just my ramblings....

"Smaug"

posted 09-12-2006 01:08 PM            

Back again to tell you of the continuing saga of the tankard.

To answer your questions. I have not taken the lock off yet. I have not done anything to the tankard yet. I figure do my research first then once I know alittle bit more start to think about how I will preserve it and display it. I don't think that I would do restoration work on it, just clean it up a bit. I did ask a locksmith if they could get an extra key for me, they said they couldn't. They could pick the lock or cut it off. I don't want to carry it in to a locksmith yet, until I get mare info on it.

I got the price quote for the pictures from the Rhode Island Historical Society. They sent me an invoice for $25 dollars per picture plus a $5 handling fee. A little high for a couple of digital shots to be emailed to me, but what am I gonna do? I sent off the check for a picture of the Coat of Arms and the initials on the handle. You would think that would be simple, but they are going to send me an agreement to sign after they get the money. that I have to sign and send back. This is to assure them I will not publish the photos. It seems the fee for reproductive rights are more expensive. Do you think that would include posting a copy in this forum for your advise? I would love your opinions. I guess it will be spelled out more clearly in the agreement.

posted 09-12-2006 04:17 PM            

There also is generally a charge for a researcher's time when you ask someone to do research for you at a remote facility. Not for simple questions, but if there's any real time expenditure involved. Some places have staff researchers; others maintain lists of local researchers who can be contracted to do research.

One should always ask permission before reproducing any image or text, including use on the internet. Most places will grant permission for free or a token charge if the use is non-commercial, but charge more for commercial use. Some just have a flat fee. Most will have a statement of attribution that must accompany reproduction.

Many research facilities now will allow researchers to take photos with their own cameras, which is a great boon with digital imaging. But you still generally must agree not to reproduce the material without permission.

posted 09-29-2006 12:24 PM            

The reply was curt. Yes, we got the check. Since this is an object in the collection it will take at least 6 weeks for photos to be taken. You will get a release statement inthe mail that must be signed and returned. The pictures can not be posted at all.

I'll let you know more when I hear anything.

posted 09-30-2006 05:28 PM            

I would not delay in removing the lock and have a respected locksmith remove it while you are there watching. Explain that you are concerned about scratches since it is a family heirloom. I might even suggest covering up the surface with masking tape to protect the surfaces. The gum residue can easily removed after the lock has been removed. curious to see what is inside and if the darts caused any damage.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

posted 11-03-2006 03:23 PM            

I finally got the pictures from the Rhode Island Historical Society!!!

I wish I could post them, but alas I had to sign a agreement that I would not.

It is the same crest, with some minor differences. I wish I knew enough about heraldry to describe them properly. There are even differences in the initials on the handles..

First the handles. On mine ( pictured before) the initials are seperated by equal signs, on the RIHS one the BS are seperated by a sort of squiggle or possibly a fluer de lis - the SS are just like mine. The engraving looks a little cruder on the RIHS one. But the placement is exactly the same.

It is strange that the RIHS couldn'e give me better pictures than I was able to take with a fairly cheap set up. And the resolution is terrible. I also asked (and paid for) a close up of the crest and they sent a picture of the whole front of the tankard. So, when I zoom onto the crest itself it losses detail.

The crest is like mine:
same lion, same unicorn, same background bands

similar floral pattern but not exact outside of crest. slightly different shape of the shield.

posted 11-12-2006 02:25 PM            

Ownership of the MIA tankard was also different, being first engraved with I*R and then "Hubburd." The arms and crest are also unrelated.

posted 03-06-2007 10:00 PM            

Also, just out of curiosity, does anyone know if and when Samuel Minott did finally make an oath of allegiance to the United States?

posted 03-28-2007 10:30 PM            

From what I know Minott was an Addressor to Hutchinson. That meant that he actively supported the royalists in the time immediately preceding the revolution. Hutchinson was the Royal Governor of Massachusetts, those Addressors singed declarations of loyalty. During the British occupation of Boston only the Loyalists and some of the poor (and a few merchants to look after property) stayed in town. When the British retreated to Halifax most of these Loyalist went with them, and eventually moved back to Britain. Minott did not leave and was able to resume practice shortly after the war. This seems very strange unless there is more to the story. He was arrested in 1776 sources cite the Massachusetts Council for that information, but I have not found out where I can get that information first hand without digging through some records in some archive or something.

In regards to the spout, I’m no expert, but it is well made. I do doubt that it is original though as the “matching” tankard at the RIHS did not have one. But, who knows?

posted 04-03-2007 08:48 PM            

Also, just out of curiosity, does anyone know if and when Samuel Minott did finally make an oath of allegiance to the United States?

As a possible partial answer to my own question about spouts, Francis Hill Bigelow in his book Historic Silver Of The Colonies And Its Makers says that "Many an early tankard was saved from the melting pot by adding a spout during the temperance movement. In a way this enabled the possessor to have cake and eat it too."
So the observation that the spout was a later addition to this tankard must be correct. I also read somewhere that when coffee first became popular in europe spouts were added to flagons for serving it.

posted 04-06-2008 12:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by swarter:
It is obvious that the spout was placed on the side (although that position is not unique) to avoid disturbing the coat of arms, which was thoughtful, even if the alteration was not. However, at the time it was done, it probably was not yet an heirloom piece, and provided a more practical, if awkward, use as a pitcher.

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