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 American Silver before sterling
 Samuel Minott (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Samuel Minott |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 11:10 AM
  
I have a silver tankard stamped Minott by the handle. I have researched as much as I can, but would love any other info members can provide me. The Tankard has a spout (most likely added later) to the side of handle not directly across from the handle. On the side opposite the handle there is a coat of arms engraved.  if anyone has any information on this I would love to know. the mark is [This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 05-04-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 5374 |
posted 03-29-2006 11:48 AM
Welcome to the Silver Salon Forums. quote: What has your research revealed? Knowing more about your interests in learning about this tankard would help members better answer. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 12:26 PM
Samuel Minott was a silversmith in Boston< well respected in his day. He was arrested as a tory at the start of the Revolutionary War. He later was released because he continued working as a smith until his death in 1803. I would love to know more about his arrest and incaceration. I found out that spouts were added to many tankards because of temperance concerns, but I have seen spouts added opposite the hande never on the side of the tankard. It seems they turned many of these tankards into ice tea pitchers. I have been up to Sotherby's and saw a lot of silver from the perion, some of which had been altered, but none in this manor. Since putting the spout opposite the handle it might have covered some of the crest, I figure the crest was still in the family. I have tried looking up the crest, but have not been able to pin it down yet. On the handle there is another engraving saying "B.S. to S.S." so I assume the surname begins with the letter "S". It seems that Minott worked closely with(but not in partnership with) John Coburn and Paul Revere. Coburn and Minott made some matching plated for a Boston Church (3 each). And there are notations that Revere did some engraving for both Coburn and Minott. Minott created a presentation Tankard that looks the same as mine for Harvard (featured in the engavers journal Nov/Dec 1976).In a book in the New york Library there were maps of boston that showed the silver shops in Boston and Minott had several over the years some with others, but the partnerships seem to be earlier that this piece as the mark is just Minott. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 12:37 PM
The tankard itself is 8 1/2 inches tall 5 1/2 inches at base. Tapered to the top with a rounded cover with a finial on top. There is a band around the middle. The engraved crest is from the top of this middle band to the top rim. The Minott mark is not on the bottom but to the left of the handle near the top of the body. The Spout quite large witha strainer incorporated. The spout 2 inches wide at the top and tapers down to the middle band. The stainer is a several dozen holes from the body of the tankard that leads into the spout. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-29-2006 01:22 PM
There are nearly 30 tankards by Minott known. It may be possible to tell you who the initials on yours represent, as there is a published tankard with those initials and a coat of arms. Do you know the history of ownership of yours? Is it a family piece? Usually new members have a problem with posting oversized images, but yours are too small to be examined criticallly, being less than 100 pixels in width - they should be no more than 490, but certainly at least 300. Please post larger versions of your photos, including one of the initials and another of the entire tankard. At this point all that can safely be said is that the placement of the mark is correct for the period, and as you surmise, it may be a fair guess that the spout probably has been added. We really need to see more and larger pictures. I should add that an object of this nature is of considerable significance, and that any information given based on photographs or verbal descriptions cannot be considered definitive. Such an object requires authentication by direct comparison with another similar object, probably in hand by a museum curator who has access to another example. We are excited to see such an object, and anxious to be of help, but please understand also that we will require from you further information, as Scott has requested, about yourself and your interest in finding out more about the object, before going further. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 05:31 PM
 [This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 05:35 PM
initials on handle  [This message has been edited by PeterS (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 05:38 PM
Minott mark  IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 05:56 PM
Okay now the story, you all will think I'm an idiot but... My Father died in 2002 and we were cleaning the place up, when we cleaned up the ald bar/rec room we had all these mugs and stuff hanging on the edge of the top of the bar. We played darts down there so we would store our darts in the various mugs. I took the whole kit and kaboodle. I thought maybe I would display them somehow. I started to clean them up a bit and found out two of them were silver. They had no marks on the bottom so I figured they were plate of some kind. Then I found the marks at the handles one was Minott the other was Coburn. I went to the library and looked up what I could, and found out they were really old.I asked my Mother where they came from and she is not sure but thinks they were in her father's house in Albany. My Father's last name is Sullivan, and my Mom's Maiden name is Schwartz. Both good for the "S" initials on both piecec But my Fathers family came to the US in the mid 1800's. My Mother's Maiden name is Holland and they came to the US before the revelution. My cousin had done a geneology of that side of the family and there were some relatives in New England IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:05 PM
the dates of those relatives were aproximatly right and there were some "S"'s there but I now need to find out the right coat of arms. Since silver was new, you can imagine what Heraldry was like. I have a request in with the college of arms to see if they can figure it out, but that may come to naughht. So I stumbled across your site and thought I might give it a whirll. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:11 PM
Now I took the pictures about a year and a half ago, but did not take any of the whole tankard, and now the thing is very tarnished again. I will take some more shots, but excuse the color. I didn't want to keep polishing it and posibly damage it. Also there is a padlock on the handle, that I don't have the key for, so I have to figure out how to get that off without damage. the padlock was put there because my brother had really good darts he wanted to lock up from us and that was the only covered vessel. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:26 PM
Full  tankard showing spoutIP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:32 PM
Good pictures. OK - here is what I have: The mark looks genuine, it matches closely the photo Kane's Colonial Massachusetts Silversmiths. The initials look contemporary. In Kane's list of recorded objects there is a tankard with these initials for Benjamin Smith and Sarah (Smith) Brown. This tankard was published Antiques vol 104: p. 998 (December 1973). The crest above the arms is a Unicorn's head, erased, as shown in Fairbairn's Crests, plate 67, fig. 1. There is no reference to this crest crest for Smith, but there is for Smyth (Yorkshire); minor changes in spelling of names were common, and some well-to-do families owned two or more tankards, so it is possible that this is the same family, but the crest on the published tankard should be compared as well, to be sure. Congratulations are certainly in order - your impulse to "take them all" was precient. It does happen every once in a while that important pieces come out of attics and basements where they have been hidden away for years, but never with darts padlocked inside! We would like to see the Coburn piece as well, as it may also be unrecorded. ---------- [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 356 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:38 PM
Peter your tankard is special and if a family piece even more so. The dart part of its history, is sending a few shivers through this crowd, and I won't say what the lock is doing (actually it is a delightful part of its history and a lesson to all collectors that you never know what that silver has been through)! Your instinct to leave well enough alone is right because silver is a soft metal and at this point in its life it should be seen by a good silversmith. The lock must be removed with great care because it will do damage just knocking against the tankard that will not be reversable. Take good care of this and you will have a family treasure. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 117 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:38 PM
That is a very wonderful piece. You say there are two of them? I wish I could come across a piece like that. Very nice engravings also. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:41 PM
Piure from front, showing off placed spout IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:50 PM
The other piece is signed "J.COBURN" by the handle. And I have learned is called a cann. The only engaving on this piece is "A.S." on the handle. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:51 PM
It is obvious that the spout was placed on the side (although that position is not unique) to avoid disturbing the coat of arms, which was thoughtful, even if the alteration was not. However, at the time it was done, it probably was not yet an heirloom piece, and provided a more practical, if awkward, use as a pitcher. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-29-2006 06:59 PM
There is nothing in Kane's list of Coburn objects with those initials nor anything made for the Smith family. Can't win them all. On the assumption that both pieces were made for members of the same family, it might be possible to make a tentative identification, but if these Smiths were not in your family ancestry, it would be difficult to do as there are an awful lot of Smiths. Still, it is a nice piece to have, to say the least. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 356 |
posted 03-29-2006 07:00 PM
When you have shown this to whom ever will free it you can talk about the pros and cons (and cost) of removing the spout and restoring it to as close to original. It is not an easy job and should only be done by an expert hand. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 07:01 PM
What should I do now to preserve them. When I went to the Metroploitan Museum of Art and saw the silver exhibit all the pieces were polished, but behind glass in a probably special atmosphere. I don't want to have to have them polished all the time. Is there a way to preserve the shine? Where do I find a silversmith. I live in Manhattan (New York) near the antique district and I saw a sign saying antique siver restorer. How do you check out if they are any good? And how much would it cost to get is polished? Aproximatly, I just don't want to get ripped off. I described the tankard to several dealers and they said the spout ruined the value of the piece and it would only be worth a couple of hundred dollars. Is this true? Trying to find the value is very hard, and if they are worth a lot I would want to insure them or donate them to a museum or something. But first I just want to find out how they came into the family. Once I am sure of the name of the crest maybe I can work my way backwards... IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-29-2006 07:12 PM
As to resoring the piece and removing the spout. I don't think I would do that. My Mother's family were anglicans and lutherins so they tended not to drink. Maybe that is why somebody put the spout in. Now that it is in the good catholic family of Sullivan the irony is sweet. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-29-2006 07:17 PM
Removal of the spout depends on what the tankard means to you - it only detracts from the piece if you are interested in how much you can sell it for, since some buyers insist on things being as original as possible, If you do it, it will be twice altered, rather than once. Provenance is more important, as if it is a family piece, I would leave it unaltered, as it is part of its history. I don't care how much tarnish there is, or how big the spout is, and we don't give evaluations on this site, but a couple of hundred is pure hogwash -- they probably wanted to get it from you for that price! I would suggest you contact a curator at one of the museums that keep silver collections for a recommendation of a good restorer if you want any work done on either of these pieces. And be careful what you ask for -- you want to get it cleaned -- not polished! Keeping your silver clean and behind glass in a dustproof hardwood cabinet (not pine or other soft woods, nor oak) is the best way to retard tarnish. You can use an inert dehumidifer like silicagel in the cabinet, if you wish. It is also possible to have the pieces lacquered,which will do no harm if properly done, but some people do not like to do that. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-29-2006 07:55 PM
Another thought: do not under any circumstances risk damage to the tankard by attempting to cut off the padlock - see a locksmith who can carefully open the lock for you. IP: Logged |
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asheland Posts: 117 |
posted 03-29-2006 07:58 PM
I would very carefully hand polish it. Definately not any type of buffing or machine polishing. Once shined, keep it wrapped in cloth and no oily finger prints. That should keep it shiny and nice looking for a while. And definately be very careful in removing the lock. The dealer who told you it's worth a few hundred bucks, stay away from him, he wants to rob you! I'd buy these things all day long at that price! Nice pieces! [This message has been edited by asheland (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 356 |
posted 03-29-2006 08:31 PM
If you have a locksmith remove the lock, which is a good sugestion, hopefully he can pick it. If he has to cut it put a thick cloth or leather around the tankard and tape underneath the lock itself so it does not get further dents and scratches. Make sure that no stress is put on the handle, it is hollow and can easily be bent or dented and that is almost imposible to repair. I liked your thinking on keeping the spout. There is a school that now thinks these changes should be kept as part of the objects history. [This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 03-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-30-2006 01:46 PM
quote: Peter, Agleopar's injunction probably should be taken to heart, both for the tankard and the cann. It is hard to tell from pictures, but it looks as if both have suffered from neglect and mishandling in the past; if there are any encrustions on the surface it may be that even hand polishing should not be attempted until there is an even surface to work with. The surface texture (patina) that has accumulated over time, if not too badly damaged, should be preserved if at all possible, and overpolishing could destroy it. It may be that some other treatment might be required, such as ultrasonic or chemical cleaning, but that is for a conservator to determine. You mentioned insurance. A colonial tankard is the Holy Grail of American silver. All other things being equal, the larger and older an object such as this is, the less that resolvable condition issues will affect its value, so however much this tankard has suffered from neglect and abuse it is restorable and worthy of being insured, but for how much is for a qualified appraiser to determine. It is only infrequently that "new" old objects such as these are brought to these forums, and it is with real pleasure and sense of accomplishment that we are able to contribute in whatever way we can to the discovery and preservation of these hitherto unrecorded treasures, and add to the body of knowledge of the artisans that created them. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to share in your good fortune. Stay with us, and let us know how things turn out. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 03-30-2006).] IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 782 |
posted 03-30-2006 02:33 PM
If the lock is a common brand it doesn't even have to be picked -- you just take the numbers (usually near the keyhole) and brand to a locksmith, and they can give you a key without even having to see it. Both pieces are spectacular, and I wouldn't do any further modifications. I wouldn't lacquer them, either. It's been said many times, but the old butlers' trick was to store silver with a piece of common chalk, like used on a blackboard. I'm not sure why, but in a closed space (drawer or display case) that really does inhibit tarnish. As for polishing to get to that point, why pay someone else to do it? Just get some non-abrasive polish and a rag, and relax for a few minutes rubbing away the tarnish. Then you've given a bit of yourself to the piece, as well.... I'm not saying not to let a silversmith take a look at it, just that I prefer to take responsibility for my own polishing. [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 03-30-2006).] IP: Logged |
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hello Posts: 200 |
posted 03-30-2006 02:42 PM
Thats based on the assumption you use the correct polish, and I would still consult someone knowledgeable(our many members?) such as a silversmith who deals in preserving old silver. I am not too experienced with polishing, but, before I knew anything about correct polishing habits, I have caused some minor unnecessary wear by doing it improperly. There is no rush with old pieces like these, so make sure it is done properly the first time. [This message has been edited by hello (edited 03-30-2006).] IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 864 |
posted 03-30-2006 02:53 PM
What a great bunch of stories. As a curator, I'd side with the "do no more harm" crowd. The spout was added most surely, as others suggested, to turn it into a water pitcher, possibly even as a "temperance" measure--but it wasn't a rare occurence. It is a nicely designed spout, carefully thought out and (saints be praised) avoiding the beautiful rococo coat of arms. The lock is a scream, especially since you know the story (imagine the head-scratching without it, and what a creative boy your brother was). Once you remove the lock (see above) you can safely clean and polish (i.e. make shiny, not buff) the silver with calcium carbonate (chalk powder) and isopropyl acohol, using cotton wadding. It's not hard at all. Polyethelene zip-loc bags will not damage the surface, but it must be dry before it is bagged. If you clean with alcohol and do not use water, you won't have this risk. Of course if you want it on display, then the advice given above is great. IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 886 |
posted 03-30-2006 09:54 PM
What an incredable find and what a neat story behind it. I too vote not to remove the spout. Our resident curator gives you good advise to polish it as he describes. Do NOT let anyone buff it with a machine polisher. I would stay away from that antique dealer as recommended and would enjoy your treasures and be sure to use them by drinking an ale or some other brew from them. These items were meant for use and stay alive when they are used. Museums are a great way to share them with others if you decide not to keep them in the family. Congratulations and thank you for sharing these treasures. The Boston Museum of Art documents has a similar Coburn cann in their collection. Fred [This message has been edited by FredZ (edited 03-30-2006).] IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 03-31-2006 08:01 PM
Thanks for all the helpful information. I went up to the research library in NYC and looked into Patricia Kane's book on Massachusetts Silversmiths, it was excellent. It does sound like it could be the Smith crest. The refernce to the Antiques magazine was a bust though, it shows a side view of the tankard in question. I wrote to Ms. Kane at the Yale address that is listed on the website, and sent her the pictures to see if she could help. In terms of cleaning and preserving, I haven't gotten that far yet. But, I did go to my Mother's house and get the copy of the family tree that was done in 1986. There is a Smith (Abigail) who lived in the right time period 1732-1840, and in the same general region. There is not that much info on her. She married a 6th generation relative of mine named Benjamin Rice, they had a daughter Abigail Rice that married into my direct maternal clan of the Hollands. So the initials on the Cann might be hers. Thanks for all the help. It is starting to get pretty cool finding this stuff out. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2253 |
posted 03-31-2006 11:18 PM
quote: You are right - it just starting, and you ain't seen nothin' yet! Watch out - you might have been bitten by that nasty Old Silver Bug (Argentus archaeus insidious)! You are making good progress. Keep up the good work. Where is our resident genealogist when we need him? IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 376 |
posted 04-01-2006 12:28 AM
All I want to say is thanks for showing it and I love the story!  Even I (the resident amature) know that a couple hundred is absurd. Isn't it fun to recognize that something is very special that everyone else in the family has discounted. And the research is an awful lot of fun, especially when you can start to see the whole picture starting to come together. I hope you can figure out who the initials belong to. I still have a few things that I can't identify. Maybe the neighbors came over to visit, got drunk, and left their tankard.  IP: Logged |
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Dale Moderator Posts: 1580 |
posted 04-01-2006 01:12 AM
Fred is so right. Using a piece brings it to life. Please, clean carefully and kindly, then serve some beer. Let us know how it tastes. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 2619 |
posted 04-01-2006 10:45 AM
It is likely that the original owner was Sarah Smith, born 13 May 1738 in Providence RI, daughter of Daniel and Dorcas (Harris) Smith. She married John Brown on 27 Nov 1760 in Providence. He was a prominent and wealthy citizen who, with his three brothers, helped found Brown University, eventually giving the college more than $150,000 in endowments. Sarah Smith's elder brother Benjamin was also a prosperous merchant in the town and the tankard may well have been a dowery gift. I have not found anything indicating its possible descent. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 2619 |
posted 04-01-2006 03:37 PM
I have located a bit more information: Benjamin Smith died in 1759, so the tankard may have been a legacy left to Sarah. Kane also records a teapot by Minott engraved with the same Smith arms and SS for Sarah Smith; pictures are on file at Yale. Minott is known to have bought in larger, more complex pieces from other silversmiths, notably Paul Revere. It is tempting to speculate if the engraving, at least, was by his hand. A check of his daybooks in the Massachusetts Historical Society may prove fruitful. IP: Logged |
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IJP Posts: 322 |
posted 04-01-2006 07:26 PM
Wow, the story keeps getting better and better! Someone suggested adding this thread to a list of top discussions. If Scott believes it would be fruitful, I might even admonish the forums to add a prominent link at the SMPUB Forums' front page for visitors to click and view the kind of discussion that makes this site so exuberating and inimitable, including fascinating stories and finds like this one. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 06-16-2006 04:51 PM
Hi all, I'm back. Since last heard from I have contacted the British College of Arms, trying to trace the Coat of Arms on the tankard. The York Herald finally got back to me (don't you love that title). The Arms (the main part) is very similar to a Smith family Arms from the 1500's. But the Crest (the top part with the Unicorn) does not match. He said that it could be a combination of the arms of two families that was not registered. He said that was somewhat common for people living in the colonies. He also suggested contacting the Scotish and Irish registeries. I have done that this week, hope to hear something back. Thanks for letting me post in this area of the forum. Any other suggestions? all would be apreciated. IP: Logged |
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PeterS Posts: 33 |
posted 08-29-2006 10:11 AM
Update: I have gotten responses from the Irish and Scotish heraldry organizations. They have no record of that coat of arms. I know that I am a nyophite at doing this research. But I figured I would go up to the John Brown House in Providence. I got an extra couple of day off unexpectantly, so I figured I would drive up from NYC and make a long weekend out of it. I emailed the contact email address on the website. I figured I would let them know I had a possible companion to the tankard in the collection, and would love to be able to look at the one on display. I gave them my contact info, and asked if I could meet the curator while I was there. I heard nothing back. So a few days before going up I did a little more research and found the email address of the Rhode Island Historical Society assistant curator in charge of the John Brown collection. I emailed her directly, attaching the photos. She got back to me - letting me know that the tankard was not currently on display. And that if I wanted to examine the piece I would have to give them 2-4 weeks notice and pay for the curator's time to let me look at the item - and only on Mondays when the house was closed to the public. In addition the curator let me know that for a fee I could have a photo of the piece could be taken and sent to me. So I got the correct forms and am now sending in the request. I'll let you know what happens. They say on the forms(this is really only a request for the cost estimate) that they will let me know in a few weeks. Then probably another few weeks before I get the photos. I'll keep you posted Thread continues on page 2 [This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 08-29-2006).] IP: Logged |
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