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Author	Topic: Souvenir bowl die...
ElfKat Posts: 32 Registered: Apr 2011	posted 05-20-2012 10:58 PM This is a steel die I own for a souvenir spoon bowl... as you can see it's flat! Anyone have any idea how the bowl is shaped after it's die-stamped???? IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 05-21-2012 03:34 PM A spoon bowl shaped die was used to give the bowl its shape. The spoon blank would be placed over a lead base and the convex shaped spoon die would then be struck into the metal. This would not damage the image as the lead would absorb/evenly distribute the force. [This message has been edited by argentum1 (edited 05-23-2012).] IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 8460 Registered: Apr 99	posted 05-21-2012 06:23 PM Maybe if I had the above in hand I'd understand its use... It doesn't look like a die. For it to be die the pattern would need to be raised and to my eye the pattern looks engraved/incused. I am hoping one of our smith members might be able to help me understand. With what looks like registration marks I'm leaning towards it being printing plate of some sort -- perhaps a printing plate for embossing? IP: Logged
ElfKat Posts: 32 Registered: Apr 2011	posted 05-21-2012 06:59 PM quote: Originally posted by argentum1: A spoon bowl shaped die was used to give the bowl its shape. OK, that makes sense but I'm after the mechanics of it... does the shaping die have a lead lining for example so that the bas-relief design created by the die wasn't effected by the shaping? Does anyone know the actual mechanics of how it was done without flattening the design? IP: Logged
ElfKat Posts: 32 Registered: Apr 2011	posted 05-21-2012 07:07 PM quote: Originally posted by Scott Martin: Maybe if I had the above in hand I'd understand its use... It doesn't look like a die. For it to be die the pattern would need to be raised and to my eye the pattern looks engraved/incused. I am hoping one of our smith members might be able to help me understand. With what looks like registration marks I'm leaning towards it being printing plate of some sort -- perhaps a printing plate for embossing? This is a large hunk of tool steel - it's 1-3/4"w x just over 3-1/4" long x 3" deep and it weighs over 4 pounds. If you look at a bas-relief souvenir spoon bowl you'll see that the design is raised above the background which would tally with an incused design on the die... I've actually seen a bowl that has the exact design represented by this die which apparently came from the remains of the Lunt factory. Kat IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 618 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 05-21-2012 10:32 PM While I am not familiar with die struck spoons it seems to me that this die would be used with an opposite flat die to strike, with a lot of weight or force the image onto a spoon with a drop hammer or fly press. Then the spoon may or may not be annealed (to soften it) and then sunk into a bowl shape. With a plain spoon a steel male is used to push the flat bowl into a lead pancake that has already had the steel punched into it. In this case I imagine that is reversed with the lead pushing the silver into a steel female form. Hope this is clear and helps? IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 8460 Registered: Apr 99	posted 05-21-2012 11:33 PM Thank You, that helps a bit. The idea of a matching positive opens my mind to some other possibilities. I suppose a series of matching dies - each progressively more bowl shaped - might work. But going from this first die directly followed by a die or two to sink a bowl ... to me I think the pattern of the first die would get distorted and mushed (a technical term ). Perhaps our other smith members will dumb it up a little more for me. Is this a cold forging technique or perhaps this is a good example of where hot forging works??? Maybe ElfKkat will send the die to one of our smiths to see what can be done? IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 618 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 05-22-2012 06:20 AM Hot forging is a hand technique, struck dies are done cold. The issue here is that usually the designs are struck with the shaping, all at once. This I am guessing is done flat to avoid distortion or to make the cutting easier. But to get the raised delicate design from the flat to the shaped bowl means that something soft like lead would have to be the driving force so it would not mark or mar it. This could be done in one blow like with handmade spoons and I do not think there would be any distortion as the force would be even. This die makes me wonder if many spoon bowls were done like this? It certainly simplifies the cutting of the designs. To cut the same thing in the bottom of a bowl shape in steel must be more difficult. Elfkat, Isn't the souvenir spoon collectors club / society based in up state NY? [This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 05-22-2012).] IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2821 Registered: May 2003	posted 05-22-2012 11:58 AM See figures 178 a and b on page 200 of Martha Gandy Fales' Early American Silver where she shows a flat swage and bird back spoon made with its use. See also the discussion (and same illustration) in this thread (Some spoons) Some time ago I posted images of some dies with unusually deep impressions of Sheaves of Wheat. Rob Butler (AKA agleopar) asked to borrow them to work with them. The depth of the dies made it a difficult task. Not long ago I received from him a beautiful hand forged spoon with one of the raised figures on the back of the bowl. He has told me he photographed the process as it proceeded. I have asked and would like to see him post his photos and describe what he did. I am sure others would like to see them and would find them educational as well. How about it, Rob? This might be more appropriate in a new thread in more appropriate forum - we can link to that in this thread. The dies are shown here (Decorative swages) [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-22-2012).] IP: Logged
middletom Posts: 407 Registered: May 2004	posted 05-23-2012 08:39 PM If I might join in, I find I have to agree with Agleopar that as the design would be on the inside of the bowl, the bowl would have to be shaped with a lead force striking into a steel form. But I do wonder if there miht be some distortion of the design as the bowl is shaped. Perhaps, if the bowl is shaped gradually in stages, as we do with hollow knife handles, distortion could be avoided. middletom IP: Logged
agphile Posts: 519 Registered: Apr 2008	posted 05-24-2012 12:03 PM I am wondering how lead on the end of a stake, or on the operative part of a press, would stand up to use, particularly repeated use. Would it work to use a normal steel stake to sink the bowl but with something protective between stake and spoon, such as a strip of thin leather perhaps? IP: Logged
middletom Posts: 407 Registered: May 2004	posted 05-24-2012 10:31 PM Agphile, The lead could be easily remelted and a new force made, but your idea of a steel force with leather in between the force and the silver might well work. There are probably several different approaches to the task. middletom IP: Logged
dragonflywink Posts: 762 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 05-24-2012 10:52 PM Have seen a few of these over the years, often with a clear 'shadow' of the bowl shape present, never really gave much thought to the mechanics of how they were used..... The excerpts below, from a 1907 book, Punches, Dies and Tools for Manufacturing in Presses, seem to indicate that a bit different technique was also used. If anyone is interested, can post the entire section on making souvenir spoons (little over six pages). ~Cheryl IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 8460 Registered: Apr 99	posted 05-26-2012 11:13 AM quote: ... If anyone is interested, can post the entire section on making souvenir spoons (little over six pages). .... dragonflywink, I would. Thank you. IP: Logged
ElfKat Posts: 32 Registered: Apr 2011	posted 05-26-2012 06:37 PM quote: Originally posted by dragonflywink: [B]Have seen a few of these over the years, often with a clear 'shadow' of the bowl shape present, never really gave much thought to the mechanics of how they were used..... ~Cheryl I own the Public Square, Cleveland, Ohio die shown earlier and have photos - with permission for me to use - of 8 more. One of these, of Camp Dodge, has the 'shadow' of the bowl shape Cheryl mentions. I find the discussion of how the bowls could have been shaped from flat dies - and the possibility that there was more than one way to create the bowls - totally fascinating! Has anyone here ever seen a bowl shaped die for a bas-relief bowl? I've read about - and seen photos of - how dies were used to create rounded drops, picture backs and finial decoration on coin silver (and later sterling) spoons but exactly how souvenir spoon bowls were created has always fascinated me. I also have photos of 6 dies for souvenir spoon handles (also with permission to use) and for one of them - an L.D. Anderson handle for Florida - I actually have a spoon that was created with this die. All of these are handles only... many of the spoon manufacturing companies die-stamped generic state handles and stockpiled them so they could add bowls later! Almost all of the companies advertised that they would, and could, make bowl dies for any location using photos, drawings, postcards, etc. for what seems to be very little money now. If anyone is interested I'll be happy to post all of the photos of both the bowls and handles... although I ask that you not use these photos without contacting me first. Kat IP: Logged
dragonflywink Posts: 762 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 06-02-2012 12:20 AM Scott has kindly put the 1907 excerpt on the manufacture of souvenir spoons into PDF form, for anyone interested: The Making of Souvenir Spoons ~Cheryl IP: Logged

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