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Author Topic:   another maker ID sought
cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-20-2016 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have looked all over for this spoon maker and can't find them. Anyone have a guess as to whom it might be? Could this be early 18th century?

Also I have noticed that this spoon has a smooth attachment from the handle to the bowl.

thank you in advance.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-20-2016 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What reference books have you scrutinized?

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PhilO

Posts: 166
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 12-20-2016 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PhilO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the mark of George Smith, called George Smith I to distinguish him from several other George Smiths. He registered this mark in 1739. Your spoon bears the hallmark for London 1774.

Phil

-- correction added 21 Dec 2016 --

I was just updating my database and realised that this is actually George Smith III whose mark was first registered in 1774. This fits much better with the date of the spoon.

[This message has been edited by PhilO (edited 12-21-2016).]

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-20-2016 05:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you. I never would have guessed the last letter was an S and was looking under GL and GT. Also had spent time in the E section of the two online websites that have marks. I picked up a book called the Book of Old Silver by Wyler and had also skimmed that.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-20-2016 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have dated this spoon to 1802, but am not sure of the makers mark. After learning from the previous identification to literally think outside the box, could this be an MS ? Is so, based on the shape of the S it looks like it might be Mary Sumner, but according to the marks website, she didn't register her mark until 1807. Is it common to find this sort of thing - a piece with someones mark that is dated before known registration? That would be if this is indeed her. Which I had a infrared microscope at my house...

or maybe I'm looking at this upside down and it's an SH - there was a Solomon Hougham working at that time and his mark has a cut corner..

[This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-20-2016).]

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PhilO

Posts: 166
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 12-21-2016 02:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PhilO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's very likely to be Solomon Hougham as makers' marks were more often than not inverted in relation to the hallmark at this period. It's not possible to be completely sure of course because of the wear to the mark.

Phil

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asheland

Posts: 935
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 12-21-2016 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The other members beat me to it. smile
You have some nice Georgian silver there!

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-26-2016 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I looked up the initials on this is various countries (online hallmarks) but can't find a corresponding mark. where would this spoon be from ?

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-26-2016 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The eagle/BS/arm and hammer mark is attributed to Bunnell and Schreuder working in Syracuse NY 1853-57. This attribution was originally published in the J/F 1990 issue of Silver Magazine. The information is included in the book Manufacturers' Marks off American Coin Silver by John Mcgrew.

This company was acquired by Hotchkiss and Schreuder.
Another thread (andrew schreuder pattern?) on the forum also discusses this company.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 07:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thank you very much for the I.D. I have a book titled "Marks of American Silversmiths" and they are not listed in it. Is there one book that silver collectors consider "the best and most comprehensive resource" for American marks? I was researching another spoon and found another maker also not listed in that book.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you search in the "Silver Ephemera & Documentation" section of this forum for books you will find quite a few discussions on reference books. Somewhere in that section the forum did come a list of books for beginners with a short critique of each book.

This is a good time for anyone just starting to buy books as the price of good reference books has really dropped.

One of the books that I started with was Rainwater and Redfield's book "Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers". The one to buy is the Fourth edition as the fifth edition left out a lot of things.
Another book that I started with was Kovels' American Silver Marks. Both of these books have errors, but I think that is just the nature of reference books. Kovels' book really just took information from other books and put it into a handy form to search by initials or name. Lately research has shown that what they found in other books was sometimes wrong.

Another book that I really like is Silver in America by Charles Venable. The most recent reference books on American silver have been by Catherine B. Hollan. All of her books are great and will add to your knowledge. The first book of hers that I would buy is her book on Philadelphia Silversmiths. That is simply because silver from Philadelphia is a favorite of mine.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another thought for books is to check first at your local library or art museum or if you live close to a big city go there and look. The more books you look at the better you can decide what to buy. Buying books can be addictive and there are a lot of good ones out there.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 12-27-2016).]

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At the risk of immodesty, I would recommend a look at my little project. It currently includes more than 8,000 workers and more than 5,000 marks. While it is not as easy to use as a straightforward city, state, or institution reference book and does not include, perforce, some very fine and well-known makers, it may still reward patient use.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I second WEV's post!

Even so, there is nothing better than a shelf of references. As you target a specialty having a complimentary and diverse set of references will help you to understand new and contradictory info.

WEV's site is the best about what is truly known without the hyperbole often seen elsewhere.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-27-2016 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had already found WEV's site and bookmarked it... actually found it this morning. When I am trying to find a maker and it's not in the major sites or the books I have, I then try and google it and that is how I have come across numerous online hallmark references including WEV's.

Of course it helps to know what the hallmark pics are - I never would have guessed an "arm and hammer" in the last pic. Next time I'll know.

[This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-27-2016).]

[This message has been edited by cbc58 (edited 12-28-2016).]

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-31-2016 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have another question on American coin silver spoons.

I know that some mfgs. would put British-like stamps on their spoons as a sales tool. My question is: would those stamps be totally random, or would they actually use the corresponding date letter to identify the year of mfg? Just wondering because it would be nice to be able to accurately date an American spoon.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-31-2016 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Only a very small handful of American makers used any sort of dating and, aside from Baltimore, coding was not used -- few people would know what it meant or much care. Short of some sort of accurate documentation, dating is generally a best guess.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 12-31-2016 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
so coin silver mfgs would put anything that looked good on their spoons and it really had no meaning in terms of dating. simply a sales tool. would that be a correct statement?

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-31-2016 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The marks could certainly have some symbolic meaning (D for dollar, a buffalo for goods made in Buffalo, etc) or indicate a wholesale manufacturer. Occasionally they were more concrete in meaning ala Bailey's marks for sterling vs coin goods, but in all cases they were the maker's caprice.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-31-2016 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Coin Evolved to Sterling is a good thread for reading on a holiday weekend.
Also "COIN" punch mark on American Silver is interesting.

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cbc58

Posts: 333
Registered: Aug 2008

iconnumber posted 01-01-2017 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cbc58     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for the information and links. Happy New Year.

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