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tline3open  Rat Tail Makers Mark ID help

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Author Topic:   Rat Tail Makers Mark ID help
Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[19-1477 07-1201]

Several years ago, I received lots of expert help in these forums with several pieces of silver that belonged to my grandmother, including a forgery of a British silver tankard and a German jardiniere. Since that time, I've bough a few coin spoons and have had fun identifying them using WEV's excellent American Silversmiths references. In my tiny collection, I have spoons by Amos Sanborn, A.A. Mead, and Bradbury Bailey.

Today, I bought this spoon at an estate sale because I rarely come across this style and the three sets of initials (two different sets on each side of the tail and one on the end of the handle) intrigued me. I would grateful for any assistance in identifying the maker of this spoon.

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Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are the other photos:

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FYI - the photo of the mark appears to be shown upside down. The mark is unclear, but looks like may reads R R or R A over another letter or symbol, perhaps a P.

I don't recognize the mark, and can't confirm that it is American. Most commonly, Continental and some English Provincial/Colonial spoons of this style and period carried similarly configured maker's marks.

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 11-23-2013).]

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wev
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Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it is RA over P

I would guess Dutch or German

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Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you wev and swarter for your replies. Here are two more photos, if it helps:

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Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
swarter,

Judging from the style and engraving, do you think this spoon dates from 1700-1760?

Thank you, again.

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swarter
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Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-23-2013 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Channeled rattails are usually found with earlier trefid or wavy end (dognose) handles. Hanoverian handle like this are later, but I have seen round end spoons that were barely cut as trefids, or not at all. Someone more familiar with early Continental spoons than I would have to make a definitive date for tis, but for something tentative to "shoot at" I would guess ca 1690 - 1710.

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Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-25-2013 11:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The spoon tip is neither a trefid or quite a dognose. Perhaps it is more like an acorn:

Perhaps this thread can be moved to the Continental Silver section to see if anyone there is able to help identify the maker.

Thank you again, swarter, for the kindness of your reply.

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swarter
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Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 11-25-2013 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It looks like someone used the handle to pry something open - it was not made that way.

This thread has been moved from the American Silver Before Sterling Forum

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 11-25-2013).]

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Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 11-25-2013 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, this spoon has been treated cruelly. The end of the bowl is also damaged, perhaps done after prying with the tip didn't work out. Handle is slightly bent, too. At first I wasn't going to buy it because of the damage. Then I considered the three sets of initials on this early spoon and thought it must have been precious to someone a long time ago. Just gave it a gentle cleaning and I'll add it to my small spoon rescue collection where no one will hurt it again.

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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 12-14-2013 07:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
AJS or AGS or AFS
Difficult to see exact whats second letter is. Most likely its a J
The initials are the original owner.

And the S would represent the Word Son i.e. its a boy/man name. The code reads first letter persons fist name. Second letter is the father's name followed by Son.
The S (or D in case we talk a woman) is short for son (Daughter) and it can be origin a number of countries.
I have search Denmark and its not Danish. But a few countries are very possible in North.

From shape of spoon I would go as late as 1750. But could also be 1700

2 times identical makers mark is very common.

The prick engravement is probably the original owner. The letters on the lef could very well mean something else than owner. Could you write the letters ? from left to right (alternative take a Picture of letters)
The letters on the laf Cold be short for something. (could be a religious sentence in Latin first letter in the Word)
The inner side of laf - is it decorated?

Another thing - have you eaten Soup with this spoon? Your answer is most likely no. So I advice you to try to eat Soup with it. I have 2 rat tail spoons and naturally I have eaten with them. The laf is round - so its difficult to put it into the Mouth. And the rat-tail is unpleasant to the tongue. So conclusion is that they used spoons in another way around 1600/1700 the laf was not put into the mouth, but you sipped the Soup from the edge.

Later in time the laf became less round and longer. A larger laf meaning that you started eating in another way. The laf could then fit into the mouth. The laf was very large - later Again the laf became smaller.
Its not rocket science - but its fun to learn history and habits just by using the item.

I don't use my rat-tail spoons to eat, but I have tried. And its fun to experience. Therefor try to eat Soup one day.

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Heather

Posts: 46
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 12-14-2013 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Heather     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, Hose_dk, for your reply! I posted a few more photos to show the initials and shape of the bowl, or laf as you say. Total length: 19 centimeters.

The prick dot initials on the terminal end are indeed AJS. The initials on the bowl are GBM (left side) and KHD (right side). There are no marks of any kind inside the oval bowl.

I'm sure the maker could never have imagined his spoon would make the perfect avocado scooper! I also took your advice and had a bowl of pea soup sipped from the side of the bowl. Very nice!



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Hose_dk

Posts: 400
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 12-15-2013 03:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very nice and shame that the handle is so bended. That you can fix with your fingers and/or a piece of Wood.
I can see that the initials on the laf reads GHD so this Daughter is most likely original owner.And the prick grawing had it later.

GBM I carnt help thinking Gift By Marrige - but thats a long shoot. And Places it in English speeking. Where D for Daughter (dotter, datter, dottir) is a different tradition.

We hope that someone recognice the makers mark.

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