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  fake? or no fake? condiment bottle spoon

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Author Topic:   fake? or no fake? condiment bottle spoon
vathek

Posts: 845
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-31-2008 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-2622]

This one has me at a bit of a loss. It appears to be a snuff spoon by Joseph Angell I 1824, measures 3.5" overall and is very clean crisp condition.

I have looked for info regarding the use of crystal/glass snuff bottles during this period and have come up with nothing. Could it have been used as an accessory to a table snuff? Or is it a fake? Let me hear what you think.

Thanks

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jersey

Posts: 1172
Registered: Feb 2005

posted 01-31-2008 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Vathek!

This may sound a little strange but the spoon looks like an ear spoon, (for cleaning ears back in the day). It may be part of a Dresser set & could be set in a bottle much like a perfume dauber. Ears spoons were very popular in that time period.

Enjoy the day.
Jersey

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FWG

Posts: 843
Registered: Aug 2005

posted 01-31-2008 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is the stopper ground glass, or plain? Does it extend up into the silver ferrule? It looks somewhat suspicious to me, but that may just be because I've never seen anything like it.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 446
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 01-31-2008 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm equally baffled by the object, and also wonder if it is a reused spoon for another purpose. To throw another spanner into the works I think the mark is more likely to be that of James Arthur ( 10th April 1823 - Grimwade 1771) as Joseph Angels sole marks ( 7th October 1811 -Grimwade 1769) are in plain rectangular punches. Both makers are registered as plateworkers which does not help us either.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 3874
Registered: Apr 99

posted 01-31-2008 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is a stopper for a condiment bottle. They are not uncommon and can take a wide variety of forms. Here are some from Picford's book

I especially like the devil's head for cayenne pepper sauce.

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Richard Kurtzman
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Posts: 742
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 01-31-2008 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If those are for condiment bottles what is this for? (spoon 3 1/8", container 2 1/2")




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wev
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Posts: 3874
Registered: Apr 99

posted 01-31-2008 09:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Powdered mustard? Salt? Ground pepper? Short of a catalog entry, it's just guesswork.

Nice piece.

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vathek

Posts: 845
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-01-2008 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another WEB site with marks of London silversmiths which give the mark as Angell's:
quote:

Maker: Joseph Angell I
Period: 1827 (entered 1824)
Seen on: Basket, cruet, ewer, salt, salver, wine cooler

Revised 02/01/2008 4:47 pm EST:

quote:
Maker: (Probably) James Arthur
(entered 1823)
Period: 1823..1827
Seen on: Spoon

The spoons in Wev's post pretty much cinch that this is what this object is. thanks

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Richard Kurtzman
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Posts: 742
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 02-01-2008 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wev, What about snuff?

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Kimo

Posts: 1274
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 02-01-2008 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Given the relatively small size of the bowl I would think something like hot mustard or some kind of a hot pepper type condiment where a small amount makes sense to me (as opposed to something like marmalade, chutney, jam, or honey where you may want larger servings)

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Richard Kurtzman
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Posts: 742
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 02-01-2008 01:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about the small size (1/4" diameter) of the opening?

[This message has been edited by Richard Kurtzman (edited 02-01-2008).]

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 3874
Registered: Apr 99

posted 02-01-2008 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
wev, What about snuff?

Haven't used it for years, but I did enjoy Red Rapporee. . .

Snuff is certainly a possibility, but the lovely scoop on the handle seems to say dry goods/spices to me. I suppose it is like so many of those odd serving pieces -- if you bought it, you can use it for whatever suits you.

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PhilO

Posts: 135
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 02-01-2008 04:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PhilO     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As the author of the "other web site" mentioned a few posts above, may I say that I am no longer certain of my attribution of this mark to Joseph Angell I and am inclined to agree with Clive Taylor that it is more likely to be James Arthur. I just need to get to a copy of Grimwade to check this.

Incidentally, vathek, may I use your picture of the mark as it is better than my existing example?

Phil

[This message has been edited by PhilO (edited 02-01-2008).]

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 446
Registered: Jul 2000

posted 02-01-2008 04:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With regard to the Angel(l) or Arthur question the excellent website mentioned by vathek has now changed the attibution - although a trip to Goldsmiths Hall is really necessary to confirm if Grimwade is right or not ! There are mistakes in Grimwade - but mighty few for the amount of material.

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vathek

Posts: 845
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-01-2008 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PhilO: happy to have a copy of my mark used. Can someone post a pic of another version of James Arthur's mark? Can't find it in Wyler

[This message has been edited by vathek (edited 02-01-2008).]

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 9147
Registered: Apr 93

posted 02-01-2008 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think I have ever realized PhilO is the owner of the www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk WEB site. It is really a great listing. If you are interested in UK makers you need to check PhilO's site.

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feniangirl

Posts: 36
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-04-2008 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for feniangirl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PhilO, I checked Grimwade, and per his book this would be the mark of James Arthur, 10-4-1823. No.1771.

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 9147
Registered: Apr 93

posted 03-01-2008 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
another example:

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