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Author Topic:   What Color Is Silver??
Silver Sails

Posts: 8
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-03-1999 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Silver Sails     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This might be fun .....

I am not a scientist. Most of what I know about the science of color is remembered from general science classes in high school. I have been out of highschool for a few decades. Maybe someone will be able to fill in or correct the following casual analysis.

The color of a object is a result of surface reflection/absorption of visible light.

Black is the absence of any visable light or reflected light.

White light is all colors of visable light spectrum combined.

A white piece of paper reflects all (or most) of the white light directed at it.

A black piece of paper absorbs all (or most) of the white light directed at it.

Silver in its natural state (unrefined) is whitish in color.

Refined pure silver (unpolished) is greyish in color.

So what color is polished silver?

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This post has gone unreplied to for many years. I thought I would bump it up to the top of the list to see what happens.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not know the scientific answer to this question, but as a photographer can report that silver, if untarnished, is either black or white only, depending on the angle. A piece being photographed may have larger or smaller areas of black or white but never grey although it may give that impression . I would sugest that silver is actualy white, since it reflects either no light or white light.

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salmoned

Posts: 336
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for salmoned     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"...Cold-hearted orb that rules the night, removes the color from our sight. Red is gray and yellow white, but we decide which is right and which is an illusion."

[This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 06-07-2006).]

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm, a rather moody answer. . .

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
... An blue to boot. WEV, you're dating yourself and the rest of us who recognize the elusion.

Tom

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witzhall

Posts: 124
Registered: Mar 2006

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for witzhall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maybe it's related to "I am the decider . . ."

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jersey

Posts: 1203
Registered: Feb 2005

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jersey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And what is the sound of one hand clapping!
Jersey

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-08-2006 02:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
42

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witzhall

Posts: 124
Registered: Mar 2006

iconnumber posted 06-08-2006 08:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for witzhall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Curiouser and curiouser!

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-08-2006 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another of my hobbies is painting and if you want to get beyond fingerpainting one of the first things you have to do is study light and color or else your paintings will not look right.

The question is confusing two of the several phenomena about light and color. The first phenomenon is absorbtion. This means that an opaque object with a non-reflective surface gets it color from absorbing different wavelengths of visible light and emitting others. The ones it does not absorb are what people see as its color. For example an orange absorbs all wavelengths of light except for red and yellow which when combined make it appear to be orange. Things that appear white absorb very little light from any part of the spectrum and people's brains perceive a combination of the full range of visible wavelengths as white. Black things absorb all wavelengths and this absence of light coming off the object makes it look black.

The second phenomenon is reflectivity. Some materials possess the ability to reflect large amounts of light that strike them. This can be increased by polishing the surfaces to make them very smooth, or with a liquid allowing the surface to be undisturbed and settle down into a very smooth surface. When light strikes such an object it reflects in large part until it hits something that does not reflect and then the light comes back to your eyes from this secondary object through a return reflection from the reflecting object. There is no such thing as a perfect reflecting surface and so the refelecting object will absorb and emit a bit of the light hitting it in addition to the reflecting of light from the secondary objects. Silver is a pretty good reflecting material and the reflectivity increases as it is polished which means you see more and more of the colors of the secondary objects and less and less of the whitish grey of the silver itself.

If you want to really see an object - try to paint it. Painting silver or chrome or other reflective surfaces, especially ones that are not flat is a real challenge. You need to paint the distorted reflections of the secondary objects nearby to make it look right.

There is much more to it than this and if you would like to know more just ask.

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Scott Martin
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Posts: 11520
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 06-08-2006 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo,

Very interesting and very clear. I no longer feelmoody about the subject. wink If there is more to know, please tell us.

Thanks

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swarter
Moderator

Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 06-08-2006 12:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo's explanation is excellent as it applies to metals. One might only add that the colors of any other metals in the alloy will alter the perceived color, which is why coin silver has a slightly bluer tint or tone than the noticably whiter Sterling. This may depend in part on how clean the surface is, as the alloyed metals may be more reactive, or react differently, with substances in the environment.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-08-2006 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I could go on and on, but unless someone has a particular question let me add just a bit more.

Visible light is a narrow sliver in the electromagnetic radiation spectrum and it is the only part our eyes have the ability to detect. Our retinas have some specialized cells in them call cones and rods. Rod cells are sensitive to light intensity and cone cells are subspecialized to detect either red, green or blue light which are known as the primary colors (though actually they can detect a bit of light from the nearby wavelengths also). The cones and rods send signals by micro-electrical impulses to our brains where they are combined and interpreted as being colors.

In addition to there not being a perfect reflective surface, there is also not a perfect absorptive surface. An imperfect absorber of all light frequencies winds up emiting partial amounts of all frequencies. That is what we see as shades of grey which is what we see when we look at silver that has a matte surface to dampen its reflectivity, though even a matte surface is reflecting to some degree in a material like silver.

Another of the many phenonmena associated with light and color is a pair called diffraction and interference. Simply put this is where light gets bounced around after hitting an object and light waves start adding and subtracting from each other to make different colors. For example, if you have a piece of silver with a zillion tiny scratches on the surface and you shine a strong light on it, if you look closely you will see a bit of a rainbow effect which is caused by this pair of phenomena. What is happening is light waves are reflecting off of the sides of the zillion micro-grooves and interacting with each other.

One last thing and I'll stop babbling, when you paint a picture of a reflected surface, you always use a color value that is slightly less intense than the object that is being seen in it. This is because of the point I mentioned earlier that there is no such thing as a perfect reflective surface - you always loose some energy in the process and this is what your eyes are actually seeing. If you paint the object to have an equally bright color as the object being reflected it will look artificial. Also, you need to tint the reflecting surface image with the color that it would have were it not for its reflectivity since there will be an element of that color in the object in real life. For silver, this is simply adding a touch of light grey which is color neutral to the objects being reflected. For a colored object like an object with shiney red paint it gets more complicated since you need to combine a bit of that red color to the color of the reflected object.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 06-08-2006).]

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middletom

Posts: 467
Registered: May 2004

iconnumber posted 06-14-2006 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for middletom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've often noticed that sterling has a bit of a yellow cast to it, especially if the polished sterling piece is viewed next to another type of polished metal. Some of the pictures in ONC's catalog for hollowware show polished pewter next to sterling and there the yellow of the sterling really shows through compared to the steel gray of polished pewter.

I was once doing a demonstration at a store in Boston and a woman who had stopped by was comparing our silver to another brand and she said that the other brand's color was more pink than ONC's. Though I could not see the distinction she said she could, I thought later that perhaps the difference had to do with differing polishing compounds used. Our finisher refers to the final polishing of the silver as "coloring". He uses a white compound for that last step and perhaps the other company, who's product that woman was looking at, had used rouge, thereby imparting a pink tint that she could see.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 06-15-2006 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My experience 'back in the day' was that polishing with jewelers' rouge would definitely add a rosy glow to silver. But use of even a non-abrasive home silver polish would take that away fairly quickly.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-15-2006 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you have ever looked at a polished object under a microscope at high magnification you will see that the surface is not as smooth as it appears to the naked eye. There are all kinds of microscopic size pits and scratches. When you use a polishing compound you can never get all of it off since a tiny bit is caught in these tiny pits and scratches. Rouge is red and so it will impart a pinkish tinge.

There are two other common reasons for silver appearing to your eye as having a slight color. One is that it is reflecting some nearby object's color. This could be the wall or ceiling or someone's clothes or anything else nearby. The second reason for an apparent tint is the kind of light that is being used to illuminate the object. If you want to experience an object's true color you have to use a full spectrum light source which is emiting light across every wavelength of the visible spectrum from red to orange to yellow to green to blue to indigo to violet and every step between and that is emitting each one at the same intensity. A standard incandescent or fluorescent lamp will not give you this. Sunlight is pretty close, though it has a bit extra in the yellow wavelengths that give things a slight bit of yellowish tint and if you are looking at something under the open sky you will also get a blue tint (don't get me started explaining why the sky is blue during the day and red/orange/yellow at sunrise or sunset or greenish grey during a storm, etc).

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middletom

Posts: 467
Registered: May 2004

iconnumber posted 06-15-2006 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for middletom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hadn't thought about the type of light imparting the yellowish tint to the sterling. Obviously, most photographers would not use the type of light you mentioned, especially not if silver isn't what they primarily shoot. I had thought the copper gave the yellowish look, but as I think of it now, I realize the copper would not be that prominent.

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salmoned

Posts: 336
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 06-16-2006 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for salmoned     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The objective issues seem to have been fairly well discussed. However, I find the subjective issues have been mostly avoided. Every viewer sees a bit differently, due to their physical and psychological differences. Physical differences can be due to varying proportions and/or distributions of rods to cones as well as other genetic/developmental variations. Psychological differences can arise from the same causes as well as cultural/experiential nuances.

No object has color in and of itself, the color resides solely in the light absorbed and/or reflected from it. Therefore, the color of silver is "None". wink

[This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 06-16-2006).]

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Salmoned makes an excellent point about the subjective issues involved. I have often wondered why silver is so much more attractive after it has been used for a number of years. Perhaps it is a result of the little wear marks that diffuse reflected light or maybe it is the gradual oxidation of silver that may take 100 of years to form or some combination of both. Perhaps the color of old silver is best described in subjective terms such as attractive, alluring, fascinating, charming or other terms that represent your feelings.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-28-2006 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree completely on the subject points and ahwt's points about the microabrasions and accumulation of oxidation in the nooks and crannies of old silver. I also think there is an element that much of the old silver was simply more artistically made than modern silver in terms of the amount of hand work and chasing and such. Even looking at two sets of flatware of the same pattern by the same maker where one was made 100 years ago and the other was made yesterday, the one from 100 years ago will appear to be of higher quality and more attractive to most people since it will have not only the patina but also more detailing. Companies mass producing silver these days cut corners and the results show to people with practiced eyes such as silver collectors tend to have.

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