posted 07-09-2002 10:55 PM            

I have been told that this box is "engine turned" on top. Is this the correct wording for what this box has on the top? If it's not "engine turned" what is it and how is this done?

Thanks!

posted 07-10-2002 12:41 AM            

Can you figure out what year that is? If I looked it up correctly, which is not guaranteed, I see it being dated as 1912-1913. Let me know.

What time frame are we looking at when engine turning was started?

Good to chat with you again, Thanks!

I noticed something else, the tiny lines look very even and BUT the larger stripes are uneven and now that I really look at that aspect, it doesn't look exactly centered.

posted 07-10-2002 12:52 AM            

for a lovely page of pattern examples. I believe (but know less about it than I should) that the first machines were developed in the 1820s. They were very labor intensive and demanded high skill -- hence only first rate goods -- watch cases, serving pieces, currency plates, etc got the treatment. Fully automatic machines became standard in the 1860s and the practice became more wide-spread.

posted 07-10-2002 07:01 AM            

quote:

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Ringboxlady: I can't get a closer picture without a terrific glare.

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posted 07-10-2002 08:54 PM            

From my web searches, it appears that true (ie hand controlled and complicated as hell) engine turning has a real dedicated following keeping the craft alive. One problem (and I know how they feel, being a letterpress printer) is that the 'real' machines haven't been made since the 1940s. Basic, hands-off machines (ala Tiffany) are still available, but looked upon with scorn.

posted 01-22-2009 03:55 AM            

What I don't understand is how the machine was guided so that the e-t'ing didn't run over engraved areas or other areas to be kept pristine.

E-t'ing for circular objects like watches and compacts was done on something called a "rose engine." This was a different machine from the one in Venable.

posted 01-22-2009 09:25 AM            

Thanks for your tidbit on engine turning. I myself would love to see one of the machines which did this intriguing detail. Better yet, I would have loved to have seen it back in it's time actually being done. I'll have to see if I can look up the book you mentioned.

Thanks again,
Courtney

posted 01-31-2009 08:33 PM            

It was a wonderful experience! Thank you.

posted 08-18-2012 01:25 PM            

• The Art of Guilloche
  
• Master Guillocheur - Métiers D'Art - Vacheron Constantin
  
• Horlogery - The Guillocheur
  

posted 08-23-2012 10:22 PM            

The circular abrasions that are referred to as "engine turning" I've read is correctly called Damascening for it was often used on Damascus steel weaponry. Because that work dates back a long way it was probably done by hand originally.

middletom

posted 08-29-2012 04:00 PM            

Middletom, I am not sure but I had always thought that damascening was different from Damascus steel? My understanding is that damascening is a technique where a smith takes some dark colored oxidized steel and hammers gold or silver into it in arabesque designs that is reminiscent of damask silk tapestry designs. And that Damascus steel is where an iron smith takes a lump of iron with many carbon and other impurities and hammers it into a blade in such a way as to preserve the mix of high and low carbon areas in the iron making a resulting swirly mix of high and low carbon steel. Then when it is filed and polished the surface reveals that swirly mix as it was created by the different areas of higher or lower carbon steel that are naturally slightly different colors (darker and lighter) and that are affected by skillful hammering patterns of the smith to reveal a water/wave-like patterning in the steel. This mix of high and low carbon areas throughout the steel is what allows such a blade to hold a razor sharp edge while having the ability to flex and not break when striking another blade or some armor. It is similar in concept to, but different from old Japanese samurai blades that are made from many layers of high and low carbon steel.

In talking about this, I have just started wondering whether silver might be smithed in such a way as to take two alloys of silver, each with a different coloring to them, and hammer weld them into a mutilayer bar, fold it over on itself several times to get 64 or 128 layers and then shape it into an object that once it is completed and shaped and polished would reveal that wood-grain like patterning that japanese swords have. Has this already been tried or is there a reason why it would not work?

posted 08-29-2012 10:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kimo:
Middletom, I am not sure but I had always thought that damascening was different from Damascus steel? My understanding is that damascening is a technique where a smith takes some dark colored oxidized steel and hammers gold or silver into it in arabesque designs that is reminiscent of damask silk tapestry designs. And that Damascus steel is where an iron smith takes a lump of iron with many carbon and other impurities and hammers it into a blade in such a way as to preserve the mix of high and low carbon areas in the iron making a resulting swirly mix of high and low carbon steel. Then when it is filed and polished the surface reveals that swirly mix as it was created by the different areas of higher or lower carbon steel that are naturally slightly different colors (darker and lighter) and that are affected by skillful hammering patterns of the smith to reveal a water/wave-like patterning in the steel. This mix of high and low carbon areas throughout the steel is what allows such a blade to hold a razor sharp edge while having the ability to flex and not break when striking another blade or some armor. It is similar in concept to, but different from old Japanese samurai blades that are made from many layers of high and low carbon steel.

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quote:

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In talking about this, I have just started wondering whether silver might be smithed in such a way as to take two alloys of silver, each with a different coloring to them, and hammer weld them into a mutilayer bar, fold it over on itself several times to get 64 or 128 layers and then shape it into an object that once it is completed and shaped and polished would reveal that wood-grain like patterning that Japanese swords have. Has this already been tried or is there a reason why it would not work?

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posted 08-30-2012 10:37 PM            

You are probably correct as to the derivation of the name. I read the damascening explanation in a book about old cars by the late Ralph Stein. He mentioned that the swirl pattern often used on upper level cars for dashboards and such, for instance on Duesenbergs and Bugattis, was commonly called "engine turning" whereas the proper term is damascening.

However, I have never before seen the type of complicated designs as shown above. The designs shown there are stand up patterns and lines which simulate engraving. Not at all what I had in mind. Why is it called "engine turning" when the designs shown were not, apparently, turned?

middletom

posted 08-30-2012 11:22 PM            

I do not know how a silver cup was held by such a machine as the movies Scott referenced all show flat objects being turned.

It seems to me that many of the patterns produced have a moiré design look.

posted 08-31-2012 05:09 PM            

Middletom, the objects that Scott shows get that patterning on the surface from the process I describe - taking sheets of different color alloys of metal and hammer welding them into a sandwich which you fold over on itself several times to get many layers, then with great expertise hammering the resulting bar with a smaller hammer that deforms the layers in artful ways to make the layers not entirely parallel, then filing the result down to reveal the internal deformed structure and polishing it. The designs are the surface expression of the layers of different color alloys in the object. It is a little bit like what you see when you take a piece of wood, carve it and polish it and then seeing the wood grain exposed in pleasing patterns, except you can not deform the wood in artful patterns by hammering it.

Here is a photo of a smith making a damascened plate. He is inlaying gold and silver into darkly oxidized steel.

posted 08-24-2021 11:41 AM            

1854-385 Rare Antique F A Hall Straight Line Engine Turning Machine for Ornamental Engraving/Guilloche

FA Hall Straight Line Engine Ornamental Turning Engraving Guilloche Machine