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Author Topic:   Needlecase date
doobees

Posts: 277
Registered: Jan 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for doobees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-1107]

I found this nifty needle case. So far I know it's French silver - the boar's heads just tell me it's post May, 1838 and prior to 1962. Quite a range! I have not yet found the maker which is C the a spoon looking thing and then a G, but that could be a partly worn out "O" - all in a lozenge. If anyone knows the maker, then I might be able to date it more closely.
Merci!


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Suzanne D

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nihontochicken

Posts: 289
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nihontochicken     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The lozenge (diamond shaped stamp) was often the mark of a female silversmith in Britain, that shape traditionally used there to signify widowhood. I have no idea whether it was also used thusly in France, though. Not a bunch of help, I know. BTW, were there many female silversmiths in France?

Rick

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
the needle certainly looks more like a bodkin, used, I believe for threading ribbon through lace etc.?

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doobees

Posts: 277
Registered: Jan 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doobees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A bodkin! Never heard of one, but it makes sense to me. The eye of the needle is pretty long - and the point would only work with an open weave sort of textile. It seems much too detailed to be just a needle too. Thank you for this info! I'll look it up. It occurred to me that I might date it by the needle style so this could help.

To Rick: I also did not know about lozenges and british widows. Ah yes - another day another bit of info... Here, the boar's head is the hall-mark for fineness .800 up to 1962 when they changed to the crab - and all maker's marks are in a lozenge since 1797. That does not make it any easier to ID though confused

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Suzanne D

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doobees

Posts: 277
Registered: Jan 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doobees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oops - did not clarify that the boar's head is for the small items. The TÍte de Minerve remains for the big pieces...

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Suzanne D

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In British heraldry the lozenge is the shape of the escutcheon used for a woman's coat of arms, as opposed to the shield shape that is used for a man's coat of arms. It is not limited to just widows. I'm not convinced that would have much to do with a French silver mark though.

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adelapt

Posts: 418
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 06-02-2003 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adelapt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When the French hallmarking system was reformed after the Revolution, it was decreed that makers' marks would be in the form of that diamond/lozenge form. This clearly distinguished them from the "ancien regime"
system. Thus it has nothing to do with the English tendency of widows (in particular) registering their marks in a lozenge.

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doobees

Posts: 277
Registered: Jan 2003

iconnumber posted 06-03-2003 05:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for doobees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree that it has nothing to do with the French system, but now I know about the escutcheon for women in general as opposed to shields for men... so thanks!

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Suzanne D

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doobees

Posts: 277
Registered: Jan 2003

iconnumber posted 06-03-2003 06:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for doobees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Vathek! I did a search and it is surely a bodkin and case... smile

Now, how do I date the thing. I can't find the maker... Now it's anywhere between 1838 and 1962. The seller said it was 1880-90, I always like to verify.

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Suzanne D

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nihontochicken

Posts: 289
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 06-03-2003 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nihontochicken     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo, doobees and folk -

Sorry for the the bad gouge re the female lozenge shape. I got my info from "Women Silversmiths, 1685-1845", which on p.20 top states, "The marks of widows were often set in a lozenge, the traditional heraldic device for a widow, as were Sarah Holaday's marks of 1719 and 1725." I assume the author should have stated "traditional heraldic device for a woman" instead. At least I didn't screw up what I read. Thanks, Kimo, for correcting this misdirection!

Rick

P.S. to Suzanne - Best of luck to you on your foray into the terrible world of French bureaucracy. It will be interesting to see the comparative results of your personal visit there versus your email to the Edinburgh Assay Office. Thanks for both efforts!

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labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 06-03-2003 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't really make out the maker's mark that well, but if it is a pine cone which is what I think it is. The maker is Celistin Galbrunner who made garnitures for necessaires (which this falls into) between 1852 and 1867 at 113 rue de Temple, Paris.
Maurice

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doobees

Posts: 277
Registered: Jan 2003

iconnumber posted 06-04-2003 04:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for doobees     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maurice Mon Ami, Thank you so much. I'll get out my +20 loop and check it as a pinecone smile

Rick: Hey, since we weren't there for the marking we can only learn by what we read... I still learned a lot by having everyone dig deeper into the lozenge shape. Merci!

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Suzanne D

[This message has been edited by doobees (edited 06-04-2003).]

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