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 Guilded silver - some help please
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| Author | Topic: Guilded silver - some help please |
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fidda Posts: 45 |
posted 02-16-2006 01:18 PM
  
Hi, I was wondering if items such as sugar bowls and creamers that have a gilded/gold plated interior (don't know exact term) decrease in value if is worn? Does the wear by age to the gold plating to the inside of silver objects reduce its appeal/value? P.S. can you get the interior re-gilded? IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 02-16-2006 02:44 PM
I'd say that some wear to gilding is expected on antique items. If it is largely intact, that is a bonus, but with an object 80-100 years old, you have to expect some wear. I don't think it is a major problem, especially since if the gilding was completely gone, most people would not mind or notice. It is possible to have piece re-gilded, but they don't do it the way it used to be done (too hazardous), and the color MAY not match what was there previously. I'm sure others will be happy to fill you in on the details. Hope this helps, Brent IP: Logged |
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Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 |
posted 02-16-2006 06:46 PM
Might be worth mentioning to new collectors that all good condition gilding should be treated with a certain amount of suspicion. Gilding is a very good method of concealing repairs ! By it's very nature it is soft and prone to wear, especially on the high points. Much more silver than we realise was originally gilded but has worn off over the years and any remaining traces rubbed off by dealers. If you see small traces of a yellow tint in the crevices of a casting, it could well be the last vestige of gilding. A futher warning - the guilding is often only microns thick, especially in post 1830 silver. Silver polish will remove it quite easily. In my early days I polished a slightly dirty pair of c1900 Asprey silver gilt shoe buckles. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-16-2006 10:00 PM
So how should you clean a piece with some worn gilding, especially if the parts where it's worn off are tarnished? Just wash it with soapy water? Or try to polish the tarnished parts? And what if you use the piece? I have a mid-19th century creamer with a gilded interior. How do I safely wash off the cream without washing off the gold? IP: Logged |
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IJP Posts: 326 |
posted 02-17-2006 12:37 AM
Hmmm... well, where intact, I don't think the goldwash should tarnish at all. Among the properties of gold that make it necessary for certain pieces is its resistance to chemicals and compounds which would cause silver to tarnish. Those properties are, combined with scarcity, brilliance, malleability, and other qualities, among the reasons that gold has been treasured as a precious metal for ages. The gold itself should not develop any tarnish, and therefore will not need to be polished. And I don't believe that the few spots within the gilded area where it has worn off, and which may tarnish, should be of too much concern. I would probably leave it alone. Just wash gently with a soft cloth. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-17-2006 07:23 AM
I know that a lot of people buy silver because they really like it and want to use it. I was with the great majority. One day I went to The Ohio Historical Society and was shown what happens over a lifetime of use. I no longer use my silver. I have now embraced the philosophy of 'we are caretakers of what remains of our history'. Now that I have had my say on to the subject at hand. Use soap and water. Buy a wetting agent and add to the water. This breaks the surface tension of the water allowing it to flow more easily into those little spots. Using a wetting agent allows for air drying so you do not need to rub the surface. If there is a lot of raised or depressed decoration then you will need to turn the piece to allow drainage. I should have added that it needs to be placed on an absorbant surface. Now for a second area - Gilding. Earliest gilding was done by making an amalgam of gold and mercury. This was painted on the surface and then subjected to high heat. This drove off the mercury as a vapor. The inhalation of this vapor is what killed a lot of people. Ever hear the saying, Mad as a hatter. People who made hats used mercury. Mercury does not like nerve tissue. Mercury produces dementia then mercifully death. Thats it for this round. I know your still going to use your silver so Enjoy it. IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 02-17-2006 04:43 PM
Obviously, what one needs to do is accumulate so much silver that one ends up using each piece only once or twice a decade, thus preserving it from wear. Or at least, that's what I'm going to tell my husband next time he complains about all my silver spoons. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 02-17-2006 06:12 PM
Silver and Gold are valuable in large measure because they do not react chemically with very many things and hence hold their appearance. Gold dug out of ancient tombs looks like it was made yesterday. The abrasive in the polish and the rubbing do the damage. Besides soap and water, you might try lemon juice in water - a slightly acidic solution that would remove dirt, grime, etc. Tom IP: Logged |
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fidda Posts: 45 |
posted 02-17-2006 08:19 PM
thanks for all the help, just was thinking, i would say that a silver dip is a goood way to clean gilded interiors right? it should not effect the gilded surface i think, thanks once again. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 02-17-2006 09:05 PM
I don't know the product, but again, becuase gold is the "noble element" because it does not react with much, you should be fine. Just to be safe, read the label and wait for a few of the experts to pipe in. Tom IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-18-2006 12:36 AM
I have a few gilded pieces. I hesitate to use them much because I don't want the gilt to come off! So far, so good. One is a set of old salts. I think the gilding kept the salt from pitting the silver. I have no proof of that, but it sounds good! One is a very pretty small sauce boat with feet and one is a sugar sprinkle spoon. I believe gilt was used to keep things from reacting with the silver and in the case of the sauce boat to keep the silver taste from the sauce. Is this correct? IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-18-2006 09:44 AM
If you use a 'silver dip' you will need to proceed with caution. Most 'silver dips' contain Thiourea. It is on the governments list of known carcinogenic agents. They can cause cancer. Not to fear; as long as you wear gloves you are relatively safe. When you buy the gloves go to a pharmacy and ask for 'nitrile gloves'. Thiourea chemically dissolves silver sulfide better know as tarnish. Follow the directions and you will be ok. Besides if you get the stuff on your hands it absolutely stinks. Well, at least to me it stinks. Now for the bad part. If you want to keep that old patina then forget silver dips. The fact is if you want to use any silver with gilt go ahead; but, realize that at some time in the future you will no longer have a gilt surface. Soap and water remains the best cleaning agent and you get to avoid all those chemicals. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 02-19-2006 10:09 AM
Yes, outwest, you are correct in your reasoning. Gilding would prevent (or at least dramatically slow) reactions with the silver. I believe that salt will eventually corrode gold as well, but it's not normally a fast reaction like that of silver. The non-reactive properties of gold also performed a symbolic function, in addition to the above, in church silver, which was typically gilded to protect the sanctified wine and host from any worldly corruption. [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 02-19-2006).] IP: Logged |
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June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1326 |
posted 02-19-2006 11:15 AM
Hi, argentum1. Just curious, what was the specific context of the Ohio Historical Society presentation about usage of silver? What kind of silver was it that experienced such degradation by use? Was it the use or maybe the care/overpolishing? For example, we have certainly seen far too many beautiful pieces of toilet sets where the high relief patterns have been polished right through due to overzealous house help. On the other hand, we have had the pleasure of dining with century or more old flatware that looks as good or better than it did back then because it is used every day and washed with soap and water so never needs to be polished. I kind of just cringe at the blanket statement of never using your silver for fear it will be damaged by the very thing it was intended for. I just think in many cases it needs to be used as intended on a regular basis and cared for properly. Although there certainly are some types of things that wouldn't fall into this category like maybe coin spoons that are light weight or highly stylized pieces that were made more for show than usaeage. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-19-2006 12:55 PM
Good morning June. With as cold as it has been I wish it were JUNE, warm and sunny. The point of the whole thing was that as usage continues there will be inevitable wear. It may not happen in my lifetime but by handling the item I will have contributed to its eventual decline. Good example: There was a drugstore in my hometown. The entry consisted of two stone steps leading up to the door. The building was built about 170 years ago. Those two steps have been worn to a point that they had to be turned over. They now have a flat stepping surface again. Sometime down the road of time they will need replaced. I just do not want to be a facilitator of historical destruction. I leave that up to the town officials who would be more than glad to turn every old building into a parking lot. You guessed it, I am one of those radical preservationist. As I said before; I know people are going to use these items but I don't have to be a party to it. Before EVERYONE jumps on me let me clarify - I refer to old silver as that silver made prior to 1810 and more specifically prerevolutionary/Revolutionary silver. I refer to the date 1810 as that is approximately when machines had pretty much taken over. Still lots of handwork but mostly machines. Maybe I should clarify that also. Flattening mills came about roughly 1790 so after that date, this varies to a fair degree, very little melting of silver coins cast into ingots and hand hammered into sheets used to make items. I truly have no intentions of offending anyone but these are my views and of course everyone else is entitled to their views. Once again thanks for a most interesting website. IP: Logged |
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June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1326 |
posted 02-20-2006 04:16 PM
Point taken, argentum1. There are definitely situations where refraining from use of silver makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. IP: Logged |
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argentum1 Posts: 602 |
posted 02-23-2006 07:24 AM
See CCI Notes 9/7 This is the Canadian Conservation Institute. This paper describes various silver cleaning methods. You can either enter cci note 9/7 or enter the full name and look for the paper there. There groups such as this in the UK and the USA also other countries. Good luck and enjoy your silver. IP: Logged |
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sazikov2000 Posts: 254 |
posted 02-23-2006 10:42 AM
The best results I have with "refreshing" tarnished, gilded interiors especially when they are quite polished away is: NO silver polish, dip etc. Use a common tile cleaner spray, wait some minutes, polish it with a soft cloth, rinse with water and polish with a soft cloth again. Finish. In the tile cleaner is a mild citrus acid (against lime deposit on tiles) which do no harm silver but make gold shine. The discussion about using silver or not remember me of a friend, who always drove his car under a bridge to wait until the rain stops. I use my silver with very much joy every day - like the generations before me - even when I have to wash it by hand an have to polish it sometimes. Eating is not just supplying you with food.... Sazikov 2000 IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 02-23-2006 01:38 PM
About the steps, When I went to the Louvre as we walked around many of the marble staircases had a difinitive dip in them where millions of people over time have stepped. I liked it. IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 02-23-2006 04:51 PM
Thanks for your reply Sazikov. I agree entirely, especially the last paragraph. I hope in a couple of hundred years someone else will be using the silver tumbler I use each day. Maybe a descendant, maybe just someone who loves the feel of it. IP: Logged |
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