'the general denomination of "plate," we should advise....'

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'the general denomination of "plate," we should advise....'

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Author	Topic: 'the general denomination of "plate," we should advise....'
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 07-10-2006 02:04 PM From the The Practical Housekeeper and Cyclopedia of Domestic Economy (copyright 1898): quote: With regard to all those articles which fall under the general denomination of "plate," we should advise that all imitations be avoided; let those who cannot afford silver he content to use simple metal, which does not pretend to be more than it really is. All the imitations of silver will, even with the utmost care, betray themselves in a very short time, and have a would-be-genteel-if-I-could sort of air, which is ten thousand times more ridiculous than the plainest of all materials; besides, the money they cost would purchase a few real articles, which are always worth their weight in silver, whereas the Imitations have only a nominal value, and lose even that as they become discolored and dull. Metal tea and coffee pots may be had very good, and in handsome patterns, and are far more durable than china, drawing better, and retaining heat longer. The following is a list of the usual articles in silver required to furnish the table: Dishes and covers. Table knives and forks. Dessert knives and forks. Table spoons. Dessert spoons. Gravy spoons. Soup ladles. Sauce ladles. Bait spoons, with gilt bowls. Fish slice. Trays and waiters. Bread baskets. Cake baskets. Decanter stands. Decanter labels. Liqueur and bottle stands. Cruet frames. Egg frames. Asparagus tongs. Cheese scoops. Knife rests. Nut crackers. Grape scissors. Tea urns. Coffee urns. Tea pots. Coffee filterers. Sugar basin. Cream ewers. Sugar tongs. Tea spoons. Toast racks. Butter coolers. Snuffer trays. Suffers. Candlesticks. Cheap cutlery is mistaken economy. Good knives and forks will, with ordinary care, last for years; common ones have no wear in them, and never can be made to cut well. The following is my list of plate: three dozen prongs; two ditto table spoons one and a half ditto dessert spoons one and a half ditto dessert forks two ditto tea-spoons six salt-spoons one cheese-knife four butter-knives one asparagus-tongs two sugar-tongs two soup ladles four sauce ladles two gravy-spoons two sugar ladles two salvers one bread-basket four candlesticks one hot-water dish for haunch of mutton Anyone know what a ditto is? IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1627 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-10-2006 02:27 PM Ditto appears to mean ditto. The word comes from the Italian word ditto (which comes from the Latin dictus) which means that which has been said. These days people tend to just use the symbol " to stand for the word ditto. In this case it would stand for the word dozen since that is the word in its place directly above the first instance of the word ditto. As for the sentiment about solid silver vs. 'other' metals I find myself partly agreeing with the writer's sentiments at least in terms of the value of an object's honesty. I think many modern people agree to some degree as well given the huge popularity of stainless steel flatware that has taken the place of silver plated flatware on so many tables. Given the year in which this was written I suspect the writer would have been an enthusiastic advocate of the craftsman school of design that was just beginning to blossom at that point in history and that tended to eschew the tarting up of things over the honesty of materials in their own right. IP: Logged
jersey Posts: 1203 Registered: Feb 2005	posted 07-10-2006 03:11 PM Hello! Could someone tell me what on the list is a "bait spoon gilt bowls" are? I know what they are in terms of fishing but what does it have to do with the dinner table. Thanks Jersey IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 07-10-2006 03:22 PM I was thinking it was a term describing something about the flatware - *but DUH* - you are absolutely correct. The original text was in paragraph form and I put it into a single column. I'll continue to fool myself into thinking I would have found it equally obvious if I had re-read it after it was in a column. IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-10-2006 06:07 PM "Bait spoons" may be for the serving of such things as whitebait - miniscule fish eaten whole (after cooking). Any better guesses? IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-10-2006 06:54 PM An old use of the word refers to "a rest for food while travelling or at work" or "to feed an animal while travelling," as to bait a horse. A gilt spoon bowl (or any spoon for that matter) is hardly appropriate for an animal, but maybe a spoon (folding?) for a person to take along to use while travelling? Another definition that may be closer to the mark is "a light food or snack." [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 07-10-2006).] IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 07-10-2006 11:31 PM The time refered to is described in song as:when children were working in coal mines and life was a beautiful thing. Interesting and probably English. Some of the attitudes here are not really American ones of the time. Others appear to be so. What strikes me is the hostility shown towards silverplate. As I have handled a lot of silverplate from that period, I feel I can state confidently the author is dead wrong in saying that plated silver will wear quickly. It simply is untrue. Many plated items from that period are still around with plate intact. She also glosses over the fact that silverplate can be readily renewed, has a steel or nickle base which is much stronger than silver, and is comparitively cheaper. This seems more a method of keeping the look and glow of silver out of the hands of lower classes than a description of reality. Upper class propaganda. As for having silver last for years, why would you want that? Life produces endless changes, even in ourselves. Why shouldn't our appurtances change as we do. This is the gist of the 1847 Rogers Silver Anniversary ad. Of course silver is different now; everything is. Be modern, keep up with the times. That was the typical message of US silverplate makers: modern, up to the minute, for the way we live now, in the style of the day. Maybe 'bait' is a unit of measure. Like, 17 farthings make one bait. Snark. Usually US silver does not include covers for dishes. Because rather than separately heat the dishes, the food, the spoons, keep each individual serving dish warm all by itself, Americans got the innovative idea of heating the whole room. Which did away with the need for all the clever little devices lumped together as 'covers'. Also Americans tended to have gravy ladles and sugar spoons, not the other way around as this author puts it. And the fish server is two pieces, a knife and fork. The cutting ability of a knife has little to do with its cost: sterling ones are not very useful, steel ones are. Very mixed feelings about this. But then I tend to be Anglophobic, and a fan of moderenity. The author seems to be describing a world where only a select few can enjoy silver: everyone else must get by with something visibly inferior. This looks to be an anti-modernist position expressed in describing how tables should look. Since in the US most anti-modernity is expressed in religious terms, perhaps we could call it 'Creation Science tableware'. Snark. Interesting that there is so much putdown and snobbery in the excerpt. Thanks for posting this Scott. IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-11-2006 01:34 AM A check on the book (I found 2 copies on one of the book search sites) shows that it was published in CT! Now what was that about Anglophobes? heh heh IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1627 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-11-2006 11:56 AM Bait spoons are a new one on me. If it is not a typo, I just did a quick dictionary search and found three possible less common definitions of 'bait' that could in a way make sense: A light or hasty lunch Anything that allures, entices or tempts. In this sense I suppose a bait spoon, especially one with a gold plated bowl, could refer to a spoon used to eat some kind of first course food served to whet the appetite? A portion of food or drink, as a refreshment taken on a journey; also, a stop for rest and refreshment. IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 07-11-2006 12:59 PM My guess re bait spoons would follow adelapt, since I have heard of whitebait servers, and the bait spoons are in the list right before a fish slice. Note that the recommendation is for plural bait spoons, one fish slice -- so the bait spoons were either individual pieces, or servers of a sort that more than one might be used on the table, like the sauce ladles, soup ladles, and gravy spoons that immediately precede. IP: Logged
t-man-nc Posts: 327 Registered: Mar 2000	posted 07-11-2006 02:40 PM Bait - small pickled pieces of fish in brine....my Guess, I have seen this in two separate restaurants in Europe... Didn't like the taste so I never inquired... As for the comments (Anti Silverplate) - A Victorian Flack paying lip service to his sponsor... "Smaug" IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-11-2006 06:34 PM The book "The Practical Housekeeper; A Cyclopedia of Domestic Economy" and 75 other cookbooks that Michigan State University believes are important in the cultural development of the United States can be found at the following website. Practical Housekeeper; A Cyclopedia of Domestic Economy" Interesting project. Click on "Browse the Collection" at the top of the page for the above web site to see a listing of the other books. IP: Logged
Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 Registered: May 99	posted 07-15-2006 09:30 AM A fascinating thread! But you have to realize, as Smaug hints, that many 19th-c. etiquette books existed as a tool to teach the upwardly mobile how to behave and separate the haves from the have-nots. In the US, gentility was acquired through learning and shopping; in England (and elsewhere) it was acquired by birth (although learning and shopping were heavily used to make up for lack of birth). In the silver/electroplate argument, I'd point out that by 1898 Tiffany & Co. was producing a huge amount of plated silver in its factory in Newark, and thus was certainly trying to capture a market of rich people who knew how to count their pennies (that's how old money gets that way), and middle class people who wanted to shop at Tiffanys. I'm actually wondering if there WAS a non-plated alternative to sterling? Were they making pewter flat and hollowware in 1898? I'd never heard of bait spoons, gilded or otherwise. IP: Logged
adelapt Posts: 418 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-22-2006 12:16 AM And - after something of a pause - what were the "prongs" listed at the start of the list of plate? I would have assumed forks, had they not been listed directly underneath. Things for holding corn cobs perhaps? IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-25-2006 12:21 AM The word "prong" seems interchangeable at times with the word "tine" It also seems to be used to refer to the tines in a quote: runcible spoon runcible spoon Tweet Definition of runcible spoon Like Definition of runcible spoon on Facebook noun A fork-like spoon that has a cutting edge Note. runcible, by itself, has no separate meaning (seeCites) Etymology: Coined by w:Edward Lear, Edward Lear with no definition. Perhaps when this inventory was written, "prongs" referred to some special purpose fork or other holding device. IP: Logged
mdhavey Posts: 164 Registered: Dec 2003	posted 08-27-2006 06:44 PM This thread reminds me of a conversation I overheard this summer at a good antique shop in a well-to-do resort area, which I took to be a little odd at the time but which I see now has some resonance. A woman was asking if the proprietor had yet found her a silver flatware set. Apparently she had asked him to keep an eye out for a nice, large (30 person) luncheon set. The answer was no, but he was still looking. It seemed the proprietor, who I know, was looking for a set of sliver plate, not sterling. He said that the woman entertained often, already had a sterling luncheon set, and was tired of seeing one or two pieces go missing after one of her large garden parties. She didn't know whether to blame the help or the guests - but figured that if she switched to plate the theft wouldn't bother her (she must've noticed the run up in sterling prices). But apparently, unlike the author of the excerpt that started this thread, she was not willing to stoop as far as stainless steel. IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 08-28-2006 12:02 AM This is something I have run into frequently. People looking for a set of plate after experiencing a theft of sterling from a dinner party. There were several who had this occur when entertaining business clients. The only way to get insurance reimbursement was to file a police report. And have the cops interrogate their clients. Of course, these guys could always have found a new spouse, but that was expensive also. So, they bit the bullet, bought the replacement sterling and promptly put it in a bank vault. Then they purchased a large set of inexpensive plate for entertaining. For years, a major catagory of sales was the pretty inexpensive serving piece for me. Fortunately these buyers did not care about monograms which meant they could get really cool things cheap. There were always a lot of people in this predicament. Which probably says something. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 08-28-2006 09:36 AM To return to the terminology The use of the terms tines and prongs can be traced in contemporary documents by a search of the Old Bailey Proceedings (www.oldbaileyonline.org) The first reference to "tines" is 1731 , referring to the tines of harrows and agricultural implements. The ONLY reference to "tine" or "tines" with regard to domestic cutlery forks is in 1768. 1768 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t17680518-18 This refers to the possible use by a servant of a fork to force locks in a house "every lock up stairs had been tried at, and some of our forks had their tines bent, I strongly believe it was done by her." The first relevent references to "Prong" or "Prongs", are again in an agricultural context, in 1681 and 1734 There are however NUMEROUS cutlery fork prong references from 1770 onwards of which the following are only a sample 1770 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t17700912-6 "six silver three-prong forks, value £4" 1786 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: : t17860531-52 "my master lost an inlaid mahogany case, with a dozen table knives and forks, and six desert knives and forks, they were green ivory handles, mounted with silver, the large forks had three prongs;" 1790 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t17901027-15 "twenty-four forks, called three-prong forks, with black handles, value 6s" 1791 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t17910608-17 "This fork was missed about two, on Thursday morning, the 2d of June; it is marked with L. M. in a cypher at top, a four-prong fork;" 1795 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t17950218-27 "twenty-seven fruit knives, with silver blades and pearl handle, value £6. three fruit forks with pearl handles and silver prongs, value 15s" 10 January 1798 The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t17980110-48 . "72 silver four pronged forks, value £60” 1813. The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t18130407-81 "a cutting engine as that is used by silversmiths to cut out the prongs of forks" Curiously the earliest reference to "prongs" with regards to buckles is 1786, before that date they were almost invariably know as "tongues" IP: Logged

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