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Author Topic:   Re-Gilding Flatware Pieces
chase33

Posts: 362
Registered: Feb 2008

iconnumber posted 02-19-2008 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chase33     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-2651, 26-1585]

Hello,

I recently purchased some pieces of flatware (Gorham Chantilly, older pieces) and the gilding has been rubbed off and was wondering if it was possible/advisable/cost prohibitive to have them re-gilded? Has anyone had any pieces re-gilded or know where I might find a person or company that undertakes this type of repair?

Thanks

Robert

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 02-19-2008 10:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Usually any producing jeweler who works in gold can replate. No idea of cost, or wisdom of doing so. Do you have the Chantilly with gold plate made in the 60's or older pieces where only some parts are gilt?

Tell us something about your interest in silver. We like to get to know other silver fanciers and enjoy discussing silver.

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a similar question...tho' in reverse: does it ever make sense to remove gilding, and if so, is there an easy way to do it?

Here's the situation: we have a sterling cigarette box made by Tiffany that has a glass inset on the cover under which is a needlepoint piece. It's a family piece, and when it was given to us, I assumed it had started to tarnish in some weird way -- some of the silver was yellowed in some areas. But when I opened it, I found the inside cover was gilded.

So the dilemma: regild the whole thing, which would probably require removing the needlepoint (not obvious how to do this)-- and might be problematic anyway with the wooden cigarette box interior (I'm assuming regilding involves dipping). Or remove the remaining gold on the exterior? The exterior gold is very thin -- not that deep bright yellow color -- and I suspect that someone was diligently trying to polish away the 'tarnish' for many years.

Curatorial and conservation issues aside, I'd be happy with the piece either way -- silver or gilded -- but right now it's in a neverland of betwixt and between. Any advice?

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No matter what you decide please verify the quality of the restorers work by actually seeing their work and/or by references. Some of the forum members are silversmiths so are better qualified than I to advise you. Do you have an image of the article? We would all like to see it.

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chase33

Posts: 362
Registered: Feb 2008

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chase33     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thnaks for the information. I have posted my interests and background as a new topic and hope that I don't bore anyone with my ramblings.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For a piece that was originally guilded and one that you wish to use for its intended purpose I think regilding makes sense. Many pieces were guilded originally because of the protection gold provides during use.

I have never had anything gilded and do not know how expensive it would be. Nevertheless I think that I would at least take the item to a silversmith and find out the cost.

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 07:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Argentum--

I guess it's time I took the plunge and try to upload a photo! Just opened a [hosting] account, so I hope this works. (Instead of digging out my camera, I've scanned the top of the box.)

Assuming this works, you'll see the top of the box and a detail from the upper right corner that shows the wearing (presumed 'polishing') of the gilt exposing the silver underneath.

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 07:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BTW--As I scanned this, I realized my memory had failed me. This box is by Gorham, not Tiffany.

Chase33 -- I apologize for hijacking your thread!

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chase33

Posts: 362
Registered: Feb 2008

iconnumber posted 02-20-2008 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chase33     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No problem Seaduck. I hadn't thought about removing the remaining gilding so I think it was great that you "hi-jacked" this thread. A few of my pieces are like your box: like they were polished to remove the 'tarnish' and no knowing it was gilding. I would prefer to have them regilded but if its not possible then removing the remaining gilding would be the option of last resort for me.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 12:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have you checked for lacquer yet? Sometimes old lacquer takes on a gold look. From the way yours appears, it might be that. Take nail polish remover and some qtips, with lots of ventilation. Stuff smells horrible. Apply a dab to one of the gold areas. If it disolves, you have lacquer which will disolve with a solvent like the one you are using. What suggests lacquer is the cracking shown in the close up photo.

Is gilding somehow different than gold plating? I have seen lots of gold plating. It is a quick and simple process. Problem is gold is expensive.

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dale--That's an interesting idea. I'll give it a shot. I'm pretty sure the interior is gilded (or plated -- I confess I don't know the difference), because of its deep yellow-gold color and because it is in the interior, which would have less exposure to air (tho' there is the presence of the aromatic wood liner). But I have wondered about the fact that the 'gold' on the exterior seems lighter and thinner in coloration -- assumed that was a function of misguided polishing. I'll let you know how it turns out.

BTW -- do you know if using nail polish remover is a reasonable treatment for any lacquered metal object? I'm thinking of a brass ship's clock that has developed spots where the lacquer has presumably cracked.

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gilding is most commonly used to refer to the process of applying gold leaf to something. You take an object, paint it with some sticky stuff and then using a special brush you manoever a super micro-thin sheet of gold onto the object where it sticks to the sticky stuff. Then you take a non-stick smoothing tool and burnish it by rubbing on the gold. The result is something that looks like it is made of gold. You can gild most anything but most people are familiar with gilded wooden picture frames.

Gold plating is where you use an electrical setup and some fluid and a chunk of gold and dipping the object in the fluid with the piece of gold you pass an electical current through the setup and the atoms of gold go from the chunk of gold through the fluid and get deposited on your object. The longer you run the process, the more gold plating you get.

Another method is vapor deposition but that is getting complicated and you wind up coating the object rather than plating it.

If you want to gold plate your box, you would want someone who can do the electro-plating method. It is not cheap, not just because of the price of gold but also because of the work involved. For example the object has to be fully cleaned and polished to a mirror finish since the least imperfection in the object will show up in the gold plating.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 02-21-2008).]

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are techniques for spot-plating in gold and other metals, but most I have seen are best suited to plating small areas of a piece of jewelry, for example, while leaving the rest unplated. I have wondered if they might be suitable for spoon bowls, for example, but haven't tried nor know anyone who has.

There also are brush-on plating solutions for silverplating (often used by makers of fake western badges, for example), but in my experience these leave a rather fragile surface - and I don't know that they're even available for gold-plating. I learned about these the hard way, by polishing away the thin plated layer on one such badge that appeared to have been made from a Mexican 8-real coin. Fortunately it wasn't an expensive lesson....

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello everyone - Chase33, Seaduck and the rest who have all given good advice. I can add a bit more and the perspective of a silversmith who has work gilded and removes gilding occasionally (please feel free to skip this as it is technical, eyes glaze over stuff).

First, Chase, yes you can have your flatware re-gilded. There are a few things to think about...

Is the gilding electro plated or fire gilded? I assume the former (most things made after 1850ish were plated. I throw this in here because some one might read this and have a 1820 Georgian sugar bowl with lovely fire gilding, a little worn and it would be a shame to plate over it).

Now if you want to re-gild old plated gilding and have it look nice the old gilding has to be removed. There are two ways... polish it off or reverse plate, i.e. put it in the tank and reverse the current and pull off the old gold. Only a good plater should do this and he might tell you to polish anyway, because it will still need a little polishing after.

That raises a little consideration of will you be happy with a bright looking i.e. no scratches in the bowl where it is gilded... I think for not very old or non- museum silver for daily use this is fine and they will blend in a very short time and look much better than now.

Lastly a quick discussion of "color". The color of the new gold verses the old. When I started 35 years ago my Plater/Polishers could give me a choice of gold's - antique yellow, bright yellow, lemon, red, green.... I kid you not; he had buckets mixed for the different gold's. Now I can only get one color, it is fine and looks well compared to old golds.

Again I think you will be happy, but if you are picky or are trying to match you may find it subtly different.

OK who's still with me?
We can tackle Seaducks very nice box, especially nice because of the more than sentimental needlepoint, my mother did this and I have Alice, the Queen of hearts and friends under glass on a table.

Dale is spot on to ask the lacquer question. I am assuming gilding (plated) and I think I know why? Needlepoint and water do not go together. Gilding wears and once worn through the silver tarnishes and you now have to polish.

So should this be re-gilded? I really am not sure for two reasons. The first is that unless the needlepoint can be removed without harm there is no discussion. A GOOD silversmith may be able to. I tend to think unless the maker (and Gorham might have) planed for this, chances are it will be hard to get out without slight damage to the box. If you decide to gild it show it to that smith and get their opinion.

Second for the reasons that were mentioned above if you want to re-gild or just remove the gilding it will change the surface of the box to a brighter scratch free look.

If you do decide you would rather have it look "good" (read less scruffy) there is nothing wrong with that. There are those here who I think would say leave it, live with it, carefully polish it once and a while and in another 50 years most of the gilding will be gone but it will have this great surface...

Lastly, cost. Spoon bowls should be affordable... what does that mean with the price of gold at $900+? Typical gilding is put on in microns and a cheap job 2 -3 microns rubs off with your thumb. A good job should be 10 - 15 microns up to 20. That is probably $1 -$5 dollars of gold (just guessing) but the labor is where they get you today. So for a spoon its still not bad (?), but for Seaduck's box there is a lot more surface area (how they estimate cost of gold) and it could be a tricky job labor wise.

I hope that this was helpful, please ask any questions if I have not been clear and good luck to you both.


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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seaduck, nail polish remover is a good place to start. Never know what will be needed to remove lacquer. In extreme cases, I've used oven cleaner at a car wash. My own experience is that everything is lacquered until proven otherwise. Good luck with the piece.

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agleopar --I read every word!

And I am so glad that I posted this little box, because I really had no clue as to the potential problems of replating it. Your rationale as to why it might have been gold plated -- I understood you to mean that the water involved in most silver polishing might have created problems for the needlepoint -- makes sense. Tho' there is always the chance that it was a decorative decision -- perhaps Gorham made these with gold and silver finishes for whatever would best match the needlework.

The price of gold is indeed over the top, but I think we've all been around long to see how these things cycle. We've had the box for a while and will have it for a longer while, so I had figured I might 'make my move' when gold got 'cheap' again.

Dale --I am definitely going to try the lacquer test. Tho', come to think of it, would gold plating have been lacquered? Would it have been expected to tarnish?

And if it's not lacquer, I suspect I will either leave it as is, or take to polishing it extra hard to hasten the removal of the gold. smile Unless anyone knows of a not-terribly-toxic method that doesn't require dipping?

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-21-2008 10:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo and FWG -- I forgot to thank you for your clarifications -- which also gave me the sense that I wouldn't be doing anything really bad if I took it back to a silver finish, since it would have to be polished anyway before any possible future plating of the whole box.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 02-22-2008 10:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
agleopar, I note that different colors of gold solutions are still available for the pen and brush plating systems. And I see at least one brand that makes both pen and bath solutions in "14K, 18K, 24K, and Rose colors".

I haven't made anything for many years - was never better than a good student - and the kinds of repairs I do myself have not led me to further investigate the newer plating systems, but I have been very curious....

[This message has been edited by FWG (edited 02-22-2008).]

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 02-22-2008 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FWG, Truth be told I love technology but hate using it!? By that I mean that I am good at following the things that excite me or the things I have to know to get by. Another way to put it is that if someone does it better (smarter) than me then I am happy. I learned a long time ago to not try to do everything. Gilding falls into this category. I know what my gilders have shown me over the years and have very little first hand experience. One of my apprentices, who is technically MUCH smarter than me has been gilding small objects in a beaker. He has bought solutions from a popular jewelry supply house and has had very good results with color and what seems to be a good, well-adhered layer of gold. But how good??

When I go to the plating firm just outside Boston that I have used for 25 years I know that it is 15-20 microns, it won't wear (no one has brought back a cup with worn gilding), the tanks they use to prep (degrease, reverse plate etc.) make the gilding "right". The only draw back is they only do one color because the scale and amount (cost) of gold plating. That to me is no big deal as the only time I might want another color is to match an antique and to date that has not come up.

So yes for small objects that may get little wear the new plating solutions are great and maybe brighter minds than mine are doing some high quality plating with small set ups. My only other reservation is about the chemicals used. In the big shops the amount of safety systems, closed loops, recycled waste water etc. mean that I am nervous about proper handling in small shops, my own included, so I stay away from all but the basic chemicals myself.

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Tad Hale

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Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 02-22-2008 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tad Hale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had some pieces of Golden Grand Baroque flatware several years ago and I took it to my silversmith to see if he could take the gold off. He said he would try but he couldn't guarantee what it would look like. I told him to go ahead and we would see what happens. This was an absolute mess and I ended up scraping the pieces. Its been several years ago but I think he said that on this flatware it was annealed but I don't remember that for sure. I have had spoon bowls regilded in the past and they turned out fine. I am sure it depends on how the gold is applied as to whether any attempts should be made to remove the gilding.

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silverhunter

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Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 02-22-2008 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Only one question from my side:
    Is there always a mark (as indication) at silver work when it is also gilded?.
Perhaps a stupid question but I wonder about this.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 02-22-2008 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tad, it does not sound as though all possibilities were considered... annealing silver to burn off the gilding is the worst way to approach the job!

Silverhunter, there are no marks that I know of to indicate gilding...

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Polly

Posts: 1970
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 02-22-2008 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just wanted to say I'm very much enjoying reading this thread (though I have nothing to contribute). Agleopar, your description was fascinating.

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Tad Hale

Posts: 120
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 02-23-2008 01:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tad Hale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agleopar, I don't know what he did but it looked like that possibly some of the 7.5% alloy may have been removed as well, because the silver was very pitted all over????????
It went to the scrap pile.

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agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 02-23-2008 01:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He might have tried burning off the gold, which can work for a thin deposit of electroplated gilding but if it was fire gilded would not. If the silver was over heated that could cause pitting. If he tried to pull off the gold by using negative-positive in a tank of cyanide and left it to long...?

It is so hard to judge, both experience of the smith and what the actual problem was. As I said I am not the expert in this department so I too am just guessing. It is a pity that all the pieces were ruined, better if he had done a little experimenting on one first.

P.S. Thank you Polly!

[This message has been edited by agleopar (edited 02-23-2008).]

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silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 02-23-2008 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agleopar,

Thanks for information, only I found it rear that it isn't used or will be used. A indication(mark)for a silver/ed object is marked, silvered objects has their indication by for instance 84 Christoffle etc.

The figures 90 or 150 etc. used by some factories, but when you will let re-gild your flatware where is the control for quality of gilding in a process used with 14,18 or 24 karat gold like FWG told before, used in micron mm. Is the price the same or is it more expensive to re-silver the object. I find it strange that their were, or never will be a control about that. The more expensive and older pieces are gilded inside but when I read all the reactions till now I think it's difficult to recognize it to be sure for 100%.

Why are they give a indication for instance with pewter objects and give percentages in %. There is no control for to guild your silver and knowing it's done like you aspect?

It shines like silver!

But thanks for your reaction!

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Fernande

Posts: 10
Registered: Feb 2007

iconnumber posted 02-23-2008 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fernande     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can add that it's possible for someone to mistake slightly worn silver plating over older handmade brass as residual gilding. One of the first things I ever ruined was the insert to a wooden mug. Thinking I would easily polish off the gold, I ended up having to scrub the remaining silverplate from the gold-tone brass.

Yesterday I tried Dale's suggestion of using nail polish remover to remove laquer from the gold plated portions of a brass candlestick. While shinier, I wish I hadn't done that because all the flaws -- spots and overpolished areas -- were not improved and might even worsen now?

I never liked the look of the thin, worn gilding on some of my spoons. I thought someday I would get around to polishing it all off. Now, because of this thread, I will just leave it alone.

I have learned a lot about silver at this site and want to say thank you.

[This message has been edited by Fernande (edited 02-23-2008).]

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seaduck

Posts: 350
Registered: Dec 2006

iconnumber posted 02-24-2008 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaduck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hokay, gang, here I am to report on the Great Q-Tip Nail Polish Remover Test.

It's not lacquer.

I diligently rubbed in a small corner at the side. And while it seemed slightly brighter, I think that was just from the cleaning effect. The color did not change.

I looked more carefully at the surface, which in fact has lots of scratches as if polished with a heavy cloth, as well as a sort of very tiny surface pitting. It's most obvious on the goldplating -- you can see that on the top edge of the detail photo --but it also seems to be present in the area where the silver has been exposed. Any clues what would cause that? Cigarette smoke? (It is, after all, a cigarette box, and its original owners were heavy smokers.)

In any case, I really appreciate all your good thoughts and advice on this. I can live with imperfection. It's very good for the character. smile

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Dale

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iconnumber posted 02-24-2008 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cigarette smoke can leave a residue on silver. It actually forms a protective shell around the silver. Usually it washes off in ammonia water.

Moving beyond lacquer, there are many other coverings. Amateurs always seemed oddly fond of acrylic floor wax. And then there is the caterers' solution: heat applied to shrink wrap plastic wrap. That one is a real mess.

What sort of heat did they have? Open gas flame heaters, as used in warmer regions, are very hard on silver. As is sea air, which can result in pitting just from dew.

Thanks for the update.

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