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Author Topic:   Hallmarks, Ethics & Philosophy
dostoyevsky

Posts: 7
Registered: Jun 2006

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 05:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dostoyevsky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am fighting with an ethical dilemma due to my recent purchase of a gorgeous high-quality 1816 English Regency sterling spinster/bachelor tea pot made by a quite gifted silversmith.

The first problem is . . . someone stole the hallmarks from the body and patched it back together blank. This makes it something of an illegal object in its home country, I believe (the lid, which is a perfect fit for the pot, is hallmarked for English sterling with a date letter for 1816). It would be wasteful for me to speculate on the reason why the marks were stolen, which is irrelevant. What is important to me is . . . I have an illegal sterling pot which I impulsively bought as a long-term investment over the internet from a person who professes to know nothing about marks and did not mention that the pot lacked marks. I lost my usual caution re asking about marks because I was overcome by the beauty of the pot. But now that I have it in my hands, and see the situation with the marks, I had decided to return the pot for a refund.

Now, the REAL problem . . . if I return this gorgeous piece of silver art to the former owner, who will want to immediately sell it to someone else, she might eventually sell it to someone whose only plan is to hoard it as silver bullion and then sell it to be melted down. I don't like that idea. But . . . if I keep it to protect the silversmith's legacy, and pay that high price for an illegal piece of silver that should never have left England, am I contributing to the trade in illegal silver? Am I a criminal or a historian? At this point, I don't know, and I would appreciate feedback from people who have pondered this sort of thing far longer than the four days I have been stewing over it.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 08:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Could you not find a silver lover from a place it would not be illegal and trade it?

This way you could insure it's safety and not put it back in the hands of possible danger.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is quite possible you and the seller were both duped. Why would someone deliberately panning such an item offer a return policy? Give him/her the benefit of the doubt, return the piece with the information you have, and leave the decision as to what to with it to the seller. If the seller did not actually remove the marks and is honest about the pot being "damaged" in this way, why would it be illegal? However, I do not know the specifics of the law.

Good luck,
Tom

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carlaz

Posts: 239
Registered: Jan 2001

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for carlaz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would suggest contacting the seller, discussing exactly your concerns and frustration of what has happened and negotiate a discount on the item. It sounds like you do appreciate the piece you purchased but are frustrated that you 'were duped' in the price you paid for the item. Explain to the seller that the fair market value of the item has been lost due to the hallmark situation and see if they will work with you. I know what it is like to have something in your collection that you love and appreciate but are also constantly reminded of the fact that you overpaid and did not get what you hoped for. Since the seller is offering a return on the item, it may be that either they are not aware of loss of value in the piece from the hallmark issue or they also were on the losing end of the transaction.

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am not convinced that the item is actually illegal in England, although my knowlege of the law is not good. It would be illegal to sell as SILVER certainly, and the item has been greatly devalued, but I THINK it would be legal to possess it, even with defaced or absent marks. The alteration of ASSAY mark, or even their defacement is illegal by the perpetrator, but I am not sure of the MAKERS mark comes under the same prohibition - although their subsequent insertion into another piece most certainly does.

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dostoyevsky

Posts: 7
Registered: Jun 2006

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dostoyevsky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you all for your thoughtful advice.

I shall consider all points carefully. The seller has offered a complete refund but will not go down on the price. She truly does not know anything about antique silver. She was lied to by the English dealer who sold it to her, and she has gone to two "appraisers" who were not even able to figure out that the fairly clear date mark translates to 1816 -- she was selling it as being post-1850.

I think perhaps her idea of an appraiser is someone who works the floor part-time in a junk/antique store. I do not trust this seller with the fate of this pot. I bought it because my first impression upon looking at the photo was that it might be an unimportant but still wonderful little piece by Paul Storr. When it arrived and I saw the hallmarks had been removed after the mad fad of duty-dodging had lessened, I thought it was possible that someone took the marks because this was a small private piece (a heavy-gauge tea pot with a lot of handwork, made for one person to use alone -- holds only 3 cups) by an excellent maker not made for show and the marks could be used to greatly increase the value of a large showy piece by a non-famous maker. This is complicated!

I do so appreciate all your advice, and I will continue to consider all comments from the members.

Perhaps selling it honestly with all details exposed to someone who absolutely will not ever have it melted down is the best solution for me and the pot. I will take this to my favorite silversmith today to get his feedback as well as yours regarding whether or not silver collectors should consider themselves bound by moral duty to preserve fine pieces with uncertain futures and shaky market values.

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salmoned

Posts: 336
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for salmoned     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems rather silly to speculate that a nice piece of silver may be melted down for scrap - if it is nice (and I'm sure we'd all like to see it), it would naturally sell for much more than scrap regardless of the mark removal. Even common handworked pieces damaged beyond use often sell for a multiple of their scrap value.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are you collecting 'gorgeous tea pots' or silver marks? If the first, then I feel you should keep the pot and enjoy it. If the mark is more important, then don't know what you should do.

How do you know a mark has been 'stolen'? Is there a hole in the pot, or some blurred area where one might have been? Is it not possible that some multi-part tea pots only had one mark? For reasons we can not be sure of, it is entirely possible that this is the original marking put on by the maker. There are enough anomolously marked items floating around to make this a possibility, IMHO.

If indeed the mark is gone, it could have been done almost anytime in the last 190 years. And by anyone, for any reason. Perhaps the original owner did not want a conspicuous mark. (My mother always said that showing labels on things one owned was 'vulger' and 'tasteless'. There have probably always been a few people who felt that way about English silver marking.)

Could you post pictures of the pot and the missing mark spot? Then we could come up with better advice. A real teapot is always more discussable than a hypothetical one. Especially for holding tempests.

If it were my teapot, I would put the kettle to boil, measure the tea into it and enjoy the teapot. Mark or not. Those responsible for enforcing the Regency era regulations are long gone. I can see no particular reason to worry about the issue.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 06-02-2006 11:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The way I would look at the issue is this. Either it is gorgeous or it is not. Since I have a tendency to really like and enjoy 'gorgeous' that would outweigh the mark issue.

But then I really don't care about marks. One group that has always mystified me are collectors of Arts & Crafts ware. I would have a really fine piece without marks, and they would turn their noses up at it. The remark was always that certain marks, especially of the larger factory type makers made items more desirable. What is the point of collecting factory made handicrafts? These collectors mystified me. What I always wondered: what drugs are they on.

[This message has been edited by Dale (edited 06-03-2006).]

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dostoyevsky

Posts: 7
Registered: Jun 2006

iconnumber posted 06-03-2006 02:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dostoyevsky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, salmoned. Your belief that it is silly to worry that a nice piece of silver might be melted down for scrap . . . well, it is your right to believe that way if you wish to. But shockingly enough, there is a huge number of people in the world who do not appreciate art. To them, quick cash by the troy ounce is far more realistic than art appreciation. Suppose the pot gets into the hands of a happily stoned drug addict/dealer who buys it because he thinks its real purty and shiny and by golly it's a ton of solid silver! Said drug addict has the pot for a month or so, makes a wrong move and suddenly needs money for bail. Calls his girlfriend and tells her to sell the silver while she's selling off her fur coats, diamond rings, and the classic 1960 Corvette whose clutch he has burned out because he doesn't know how to drive a stick and besides really likes the sound it makes when he grinds the gears. Girlfriend runs to one of their customers who makes fancy little sterling spoons and tubes for snorting drugs in style and gets less than the market rate per troy ounce, which she has never heard of, from the craftsman who promptly melts down this utterly uncool old pot made by heaven knows which old dead guy.

This is the 21stC. It could happen.

Dale: You are right. I should keep the pot and enjoy it. And yes, I can see where the marks were removed from the pot, and it was done quite some time ago because the patina is exactly the same as the rest of the piece, which was hand-raised quite beautifully. The hallmarks are not the only things which were pinched: my expert silversmith, who does silver restoration for museums and has 40 years of experience, says the ivory insulators are not original. That's interesting, because before I spoke to him, I kept looking at the pot and thinking that the very old bits of ivory did not measure up to the quality of the rest of the pot. I suppose the maker might have forgotten to properly mark his piece, but it seems unlikely considering how much silver and handwork went into making it.

I will not post pictures of the pot because the subject of this topic is clearly spelled out in the title: Hallmarks, Ethics and Philosophy. It is not entitled, "My Pot." I do very much appreciate your interest but I wish to observe the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines and stay on track with the subject. This topic is here to elicit lively discussion about how collectors are taught to always be investors first and how that idea makes us not collectors, but a whole heap of Shylocks. Not PC, I know . . . please forgive the reference but I can't think of a better one right this second.

I hope this interesting tempest won't fade away into a boring puddle.

"Factory made handicrafts"? What in the hell are those? My guess is their drug of choice was Kaopectate.


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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-03-2006 07:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The comment that the makers marks may well have been removed some time ago is interesting. A possible reason for this is that it was originally sold to a retailer - who removed the original maker name to prevent his customer finding and buying things direct ( without the retailers mark up ) It certainly happened with buckles of the period, although normally they were erased/ defaced beyond recognition rather than removed.

---------------------------------------------
Those responsible for enforcing the Regency era regulations are long gone.
---------------------------------------------
Yes but Goldsmiths Hall still enforce them, or rather liase with the courts to do so . Most of silver plate Acts still apply although re-codified. I do not think that Goldsmiths Hall can now still have a man transported for life, but technically they could until quite receently.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 06-03-2006 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
This topic is here to elicit lively discussion about how collectors are taught to always be investors first

Says who? I (and I suspect many here) have always valued quality more than monetary value. And I've had similar experiences to those described by Dale with idiots who understand only 'name brands' and not quality in its own right (remember the old saw about knowing 'the price of everything and the value of nothing').

And I'm a relatively poor academic. Sure, I get a kick out of being able to buy something for far less than it's worth now and again, and I have been known to sell items on occasion, but that's not the name of the game.

Heck, even most of my dealer friends are collectors first! There's a motto often used in the trade, at least in my circles: 'Keep the best and sell the rest.' You fund your collection by selling off other pieces that are of less interest (to you, that is -- and that may mean selling great pieces that will be centerpieces of someone else's collection, just not yours). I do know dealers who don't collect anything, but that seems to be very unusual.

The market, at least here in the US, is strongly dominated by name-brand-ism. A 'name' fashion designer can charge outrageous prices even if the pieces would fall apart on a single wearing. People buy Tiffany telephone dialers just to have a piece with the Tiffany name. A bad design by Hector Aguilar or William Spratling will sell for far more than a great piece of Mexican silver that doesn't have a name. Ford drivers wouldn't touch a Chevrolet, and vice versa. We've been educated to be consumers, to recognize brands but not quality, and even worse, to not know the difference.

OK, I'm off the soapbox now. And I'm about to be traveling for a week, so likely not able to follow here for a while. Best to all!

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Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 06-03-2006 03:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FWG has it right. The recognition of quality is an acquired art - some achieve it slowly, some never achieve it at all. A good collector will always tend to pay over the odds for a really good item. An investor will pay over the odds for a poor one - not knowing the difference. Collectors live poor and die rich. All of us say - "Ah but it's an investment" as an excuse for buying something they never part with.
The fad for Hester Bateman silver is an example of a brand that has gone over quality. Most Bateman silver was made to good designs - but as cheaply as possible. It carries a premuim well beyond its quality.

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-03-2006 03:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I totally agree with Clive and FWG (although I would say to the latter that "poor academic" is redundant!). Collecing, for me at least, is a hobby, and the point of the hobby is to have fun. I enjoy the artistry of the pieces even if it is the popular artistry of the mass market as well deciphering the marks. I also like to imagine who owned and used the pieces I have. So put on the kettle, brew the tea and enjoy what you have bought!

Tom

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dostoyevsky

Posts: 7
Registered: Jun 2006

iconnumber posted 06-04-2006 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dostoyevsky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have not been collecting silver for a very long time. I started out cautiously with inexpensive old electroplate and small modern sterling items that were very cheap; buying bad quality because all I wanted from the pieces was experience with looking at, smelling, and handling silver and silverplate. When my confidence grew, I began acquiring some moderately nice pieces. All of them, with the exception of one handmade piece by the aforementioned (and frequently overrated!) Hester Bateman, were mostly machine produced or cast. This pot . . . it took me three days of nonstop research to be able to evaluate it with eyes that could recognize and appreciate first-rate handwork. It also took me that long to fully toss out the teachings in every single one of my many, many books on collecting silver which all say, "Hallmark problem -- don't buy! BAD BAD BAD THING! The ghost of Henry VIII will hunt you down and part you from your head! And it will be a bad investment that you will regret for the rest of your life!" Some of these folks who write about silver collecting can be overly dramatic, pedantic, and dictatorial (no reference implied to any of the members of this forum!). I had been brainwashed by them and had lost the ability to follow my heart, until this little orphan pot came into my home and made me start thinking that there are things far more important than financial survival.

I had no idea that silver dealers used to remove or deface marks to cover the trail back to the silversmith. Fascinating!

I have realized that if there was any crime associated with this pot, it was not one that requires the destruction or isolation of this piece. And it would be a crime not to enjoy it! I'm looking forward to taking it to the appraiser Friday, not to find out its monetary value, but to see if the two of us together can figure out who probably made the pot and also who did the wonderfully vital engraving of the family crest. Perhaps a hammering style can be like a fingerprint, or the repousse work as recognizable as a signature? I love the research aspects of this pastime.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 06-04-2006 11:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dostoevsky, glad to hear you are keeping this teapot. Could I suggest a thread on it, please? The idea that there are removed hallmarks floats around and around silver circles. But I doubt I have ever seen such a case. At least one where there were other more plausible explanations. It would be great to see the pot, the missing space and learn how you came to this conclusion.

Factory made handicrafts? How about arts and crafts mixed metal bronzes. The factory ones, the name escapes me right now (Heinz?), bring far more than comparable hand made items. Same with copper jewelry: the mass produced Renoir and Matisse labels command a premium over truly hand made pieces. Same with Kalo (convinced this was a small factory) and Randahl. This happens a lot, and I don't really see the point.

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 07:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You say there is an even patination. If there were a removal of a silver area containing the marks the 1) there would be a patch 2) the patch would have to have been silver soldered in 3) when something is resoldered the silver solder must be of a lower melt temperaturte 4) this difference of melt temperature produces a slightly different color. As a result of this color difference you should be able to see a color variation in the form of a ring/box shaped line where the two meet. Try exhaling on the piece. Your breath will form a fine momentary condensate that should let you see the solder line. This may take a lot of exhalations unless you know where the marks should have been. The Guild has a web site and does answer questions. You might ask them about the legal issue. Silver is now at appx 12.00 USD/troy oz. so I would not worry about the scrap issue unless it is stolen by that druggie you mentioned.

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venus

Posts: 282
Registered: Jul 2005

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 08:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for venus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"collectors live poor and die rich" nice quote Clive.... In fact your whole post was well written.
Really hope one day we can see the mystery silver that started this link.

[This message has been edited by venus (edited 06-05-2006).]

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tmockait

Posts: 963
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 06-05-2006 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tmockait     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dostoyevsky,

When considering hallmarking laws, it is useful to remember the original intent. In the medieval, Renaissance, and early moder periods people "stored" their wealth as silver items. They converted the items to coin as needed, so the crown had to make sure that silver content of pieces was clearly marked. That is why the crown appointd assayers.

Tom

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 06-06-2006 08:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In reference to my suggestion to ask The Goldsmiths' Company. I sent them an email and this is thier reply
quote:
Good Morning
Are there any hall,arks on the teapot, where are they and what are they?
If you can absolutely prove provenanace that the teapot is 1820 (I used 1820 as I did not remember your date) then it can be sold in the UK as unhallmarked silver.
You could have it hallmarked as new silver.
Ihope this helps.
Regards
Lyn Mills
Secretary to the Deputy Warden

The words within the parenthesis are mine.

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dostoyevsky

Posts: 7
Registered: Jun 2006

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dostoyevsky     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay -- we are finished with philosophy and moving on to the pot! There are two marks on the inside of the lid: the London date mark for 1816 and what closely resembles the lion passant for 1816 though I would not bet the farm on that as the image of the lion seems weird.

I have no trouble seeing where the marks for the body of the pot once were. This is a very heavy-gauge piece despite the fact that it is a pot made for one person who was maybe not showing off for the servants, and there are no dents or deep scratches anywhere except where the marks should have been. I can see signs of soldering near this area, though it looks as though a large patch containing the marks, rather than a small rectangular area, was removed in a crafty attempt to hide the act. I cannot see the interior of the pot on the ghost side of the marks as I would need dental equipment (mirrors and lights) to get a clear look inside there.

I am interested in getting this hallmarked as sterling, but could find no way to do this in my home location. It's nice to think it might be possible somewhere out there.
Maybe on Friday after I present this pot to a pair of knowledgeable live eyeballs, I will be able to give you more information.

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vathek

Posts: 966
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 07:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a thought as I haven't read through each reply, but if the marks on the body were on the side is it possible they have been worn down and no longer visible?

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Kimo

Posts: 1627
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 10:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are off the philosophy and on to your tea pot itself, you really will need to post some clear closeup photos of the existing marks and the area where you believe other marks may have been removed. Speculation without photos will be of little practical use.

As for the patched area you are seeing, if it is a piece of metal patched in I would think the more likely explanation is simply to repair some damage rather than anything so convoluted as removing markings. After all, why would anyone go to all that trouble and expense of a professional cutting out hallmarks and patching it up on just a plain small teapot, especially when they left other hallmarks on another part of the pot? It doesn't meet the common sense test to my thinking.

If indeed some markings were removed, another explanation that makes more sense to me could be that the top and the pot are a marriage and the person who removed the markings from the pot was covering up their deceit by trying to make the whole teapot appear to be subject to the markings on the lid alone.

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 06-07-2006).]

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

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Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 06-07-2006 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dostoyevsky,

Please start a new thread with photos to discuss your tea pot. I expect others may want to continue the original theme of the thread.

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