posted 02-24-2008 07:27 PM            

You can blame Dale. Armed with Q-tip and nail polish remover, I decided to tackle another mystery.

The object is sterling frame that displays medals from WW1. Again, it's a family piece; we don't know if the frame dates from the time or is later. It is marked Cartier, Sterling 925-1000, 55-23. And it has the weirdest finish you can imagine.

When I first joined this forum, I searched archives for ideas. The only thing I could imagine was that maybe it had been subject to the dread cellophane wrap that had done something to the finish.

In short: I wonder if this is really sterling, or is plate. There is a bright silver that looks like it's been diligently polished in long strokes that almost give it the appearance of wood grain -- exposing a base metal that is quite flat in appearance.

Looking at it just now, I could see an area where the silver is still bright that looked like a liquid had been flowed onto it. With trusty Q-tip, I determined that it was indeed lacquer (tho' reasonably clear in color).

I've attached photos that I hope will explain this better. I wasn't able to scan the whole piece, so you'll see it by halves. The first question is, despite the mark, is this even sterling, or is it plate?

posted 02-25-2008 05:29 PM            

This might just be too simple, but why not take, or send it to Cartier's for a cleaning. I know Tiffany has such a service, why not Cartier. Obviously there may be a fee involved but from my experience with Tiffany's it is usually nominal for a single piece, and certainly worth it.

Hope this helps.

posted 02-28-2008 04:25 AM            

Before you fill up the bath you have to put tinfoil at the bottom. You also can put some tinfoil in the water. When the reaction is stopped, put out the frame (if it's still there . Of course it is! and wash it distillate water. After that you a good silver polish and the result can be great. I show some flatware what came out the mud after many years all the pieces were black and had a ... micron mm dirt layer (I hope I use the right worth, all that English). I send a photo for the result with the cleaned flatware. You can also try it first with a little object.

posted 02-29-2008 09:15 AM            

Agleopar -- thanks esp for the diagnosis of the black streaks as tarnish under the lacquer. Makes perfect sense.

As for sending it back to Cartier,I confess to some skepticism. They'll only outsource it, I'm sure, and charge me a fortune for it. I had the experience many years ago of taking a piece back to Shreve Crump and Low for a repair for my mother. They told me that there was no way they could get it done in time. When I showed some distress on my mother's behalf, the clerk took pity and gave me the name of the smith they subbed everything out to. I paid a visit to his workshop, upstairs in a 19th century building on Bromfield Street...a guy wearing, as I recall, a leather apron standing next to an open fire of some sort. Felt like I'd stepped back into 19th century Boston.

posted 02-29-2008 06:00 PM            

Being that Cartier is at 40 Newbury St. in Boston I can't see the harm in asking what it will cost. After all it is not the same as a repair per se. Other than that, FYI the Patrick Gill Company is at 9 Fowle Street, in Woburn, MA.

It would be interesting to know what they both say. Please keep us posted. I for one would love to know.

posted 02-29-2008 11:00 PM            

And I will definitely call on Patrick Gill -- thanks so much for the recommendation and the address. This will have to wait for a few weeks because I'll be away, but I will indeed let you know what comes of it.

Agleopar -- if it's not inappropriate, can you remind me of the name of the Bromfield smith?

And Kimo, since you asked so nicely , here are the photos of the frame showing the medals. I've re-sized them since my first ill attempt. I scanned the frame, which would not fit entirely on the scan bed, so you'll see it in halves. We don't know the names of all the medals, but they were awarded to my husband's grandfather for service in WWI.

posted 03-03-2008 07:06 AM            

Picture 1:

Distinguished Service Medal (Army)(significant bravery award), Legion of Marit (officer), Légion d'honneur, World War II Victory medal, Purple Heart

Picture 2:

Légion d'honneur, World War II Victory medal, Purple Heart, Croix de Guerre (French), not sure (Médaille de la Gendarmerie nationale?)

posted 03-03-2008 10:37 PM            

I've taken the liberty of presuming upon your kindness and knowledge to attach a close-up of that last mystery medal. It is very odd...looks vaguely Mayan. Or maybe like a stylized poodle.

posted 03-04-2008 05:54 PM            

1. U.S. Army Distinguished Service Medal These have been awarded since July, 1918 and so this one could be late WW I in vintage, or more recent. The Distinguished Service Medal is awarded to any person who while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, has distinguished himself or herself by exceptionally meritorious service to the Government in a duty of great responsibility.

2. U.S. Legion of Merit medal. This one is a World War 2 or more recent vintage medal. The medal was created in 1942. They are given to Army or Navy personnel for service rendered in a clearly exceptional manner. It can be given to people from other countries and when it is, it is given in one of six degrees such as 'officer' which Waylander mentioned, but when they are given to a U.S. soldier or sailor there is no degree attached - they are all the same. This is an example of the medal that is given to U.S. soldiers or sailors.

3. French Legion of Honor medal. These are given not only to French military personnel but they are also given to personnel from other countries who served in France or in a French cause. They are given in 5 degrees with the chevalier the first level and on up to the grand cross as the highest. This one is the chevalier degree. You may want to remove the medal from the frame and flip it over. You have it in there backwards. The side that is facing out now is the back of the medal. These have been given since 1805 and were a common award to allied soldiers during both WW 1 and WW 2. Back in the 1990s France awarded these to every allied soldier who fought in WW 1 who did not already have one. They are very nice medals.

4. This is actually the WW 1 Victory medal - not WW 2. It was given to every soldier and sailor who was in WW 1. Every allied nation issued a similar medal with a version of a winged victory figure on the face and a different design on the back. This is the U.S. version. Each bar on the ribbon represents a campaign or significant battle that the soldier or sailor fought in. I can not read all of the bars on this one but it is uncommon to see one with so many bars on it.

5. Yes, this is the purple heart and it is the first and longest running medal created awarded to U.S. military. This is the version that was awarded from 1917 to the present for being wounded in action or killed in action.

6. Croix de Guerre with bronze palm. Created in 1915 and given out since, this medal was awarded by France. It is given to either a unit or an individual for a heroic deed performed meriting a citation from an individual's headquarters unit at the Army level which is a higher level recognition than being mentioned at the regiment, division or corps level - each of which have a different attachment than the palm leaf.

posted 03-05-2008 06:58 AM            

The mystery medal is a bit of a puzzler

posted 03-13-2008 06:42 PM            

Here is what I know about my husband's grandfather, the recipient of all this hardware: He was an Army colonel who was in the import business (primarily with South America) prior to WWI. Our understanding is that he designed a signifcant supply/shipment system to supply troops. I don't know much more than that.

I opened the frame and took a closer look. #3 does indeed seem to be backwards! The verso has the head of Marianne (I believe that's how she's referred to?) and says "Republique Francaise 1780". We will keep it backwards, to preserve the original non-faded color on the front side.

#4 verso is interesting as a glimpse of that period. It says "The Great War for Civilization" and then lists countries: France, Italy, Serbia, Japan, Montenegro, Russia, Greece, Great Britain, Belgium, Brazil, Portugal, Rumania, China.

I wonder if he might have been awarded so many bars because the nature of his contribution would have affected so many campaigns? The bars here are: Aisne; Montdidier-Noyon; Champagne-Marne; Aisne-Marne; Oise-Aisne; St. Mihiel; Meuse-Argonne; Defensive Sector.

#6 verso says 1914-1918

#7 -- the Mystery Medal: Your guess was close! Verso says: "1916 Mexican Border Service 1917" below which is a seal, and then "Presented by State of New York." He did live in NY at the time, but I can't imagine what that was all about.

posted 03-15-2008 03:01 PM            

Kimo: I now understand your confusion, and am grateful for your amplification. I did some quick research into the clasps. Found a detailed description of these things in an informational guide on the Auction site, which corroborated your conclusion about the numbers, tho' it did say that it was possible for an individual who served in the Third Division, 6 Engineers to have seven clasps (plus the Defensive Sector). Those numbers bear out; maybe his work would have fallen under Engineers? I don't know. But even so, there seems to be another discrepancy, as Third Div, 6 Eng would have included Sommes, which doesn't appear here.

Also, I found a listing of the dates of the campaigns (another eye-opener for me in terms of the intensity of what these men experienced). Two of the campaigns represented by the clasps overlap. Oise-Aisne (Aug 18-Nov 18) and St Mihiel (Sept 12-Sept 18). Is that the discrepancy it seems to be? Would someone conceivably have served in one and then been assigned to another concurrent campaign?

I dug out an old obit that indicates that in 1916, he joined Squadron A of the NY National Guard and saw service on the Mexican border. He subsequently served 18 months in France as an Army officer, rising to the rank of colonel, receivng the Croix de Guerre, Legion of Honor, and Distinguished Service Medal. He served as an aide to Gen. Pershing and was wounded in the Argonne-Meuse campaign. After the war, he worked in the export business, retired in 1940 and returned to the Army as a colonel and aide to Brig. Gen. John Reed Kilpatrick. Received Legion of Merit for his WWII service.

I guess that fills in some of the holes...BTW--I went to the military records site that you mentioned. I suspect that by their strict definition, we are not 'next of kin' (and his children have since died). And it gets complicated because I don't know his soc. sec or specifics of how he served. So I might be at the end of this little adventure for now.

posted 03-15-2008 07:12 PM            

Also, it's not too difficult to imagine a colonel doing the kind of work your relative was doing accumulating a number of campaign ribbons. Generally the qualifying criteria for campaign medals prior to World War II seems be to anytime spent in theater.

World War II and beyond calls for 30 consecutive days or 60 accumulated days.

posted 03-18-2008 04:15 AM            

If you would like, we, my silversmith and I, would be happy to buff and bag (make new), your frame for free. This would be for two reasons: #1. your grandfather was a veteran, and #2. It would be a very small price to pay for the entertainment and education that everyone involved in this thread has provided .

Now, because it is 4:00 AM, I am not sure if we can relacquer the frame, (I do not call anyone at this time of the morning) or not, or if you even want it relacquered, but it should not be hard to do/

Let me know through the forum if you are interested.

Respectfully