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 Mixed period Berry Spoons
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| Author | Topic: Mixed period Berry Spoons |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 01-21-2007 09:10 PM
  
[26-1331] I bought two spoons that were described as 1771 Scottish. Being behind the learning curve, as usual, I realize that this pair of 8.5 inch berry spoons were fashioned later, probably during the Victorian period. It made me wonder if they were fashioned by a professional silversmith and if they used the dangerous mercury method of gilding. How do others feel about this practice of converting Georgian silver into berry spoons? I apologize in advance as this is the only photo available. IP: Logged |
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adelapt Posts: 418 |
posted 01-21-2007 09:46 PM
To my mind, it's a reprehensible fashion. It has been going on now for over a century, and is probably still done. Since the fashion for such work came in mainly after the introduction of electroplating, it is pretty unlikely that they would be gilt by the mercury amalgam process. Even if they were, you'd probably have to swallow the spoon whole to do yourself much damage. IP: Logged |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 01-31-2007 06:05 PM
Here are the marks. I'm wondering if the first might be by James Ker, Edinburgh, 1746? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-31-2007 08:16 PM
This process seems to have begun in the 1830's and continued for a long time. My understanding is that apprentices were trained in the art of repousee, engraving, gilding and chasing by using old items destined for the smelter. Reprehensible it may be, but the only reason many Georgian pieces survive is that someone did later work on them. Sometimes one can detect defects that were covered by this work. And there needs to be a way of training people. The only way to get good at silver work is to do silver work, AFAICT. Probably before the invention of the telegraph this seemed like a good idea. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 01-31-2007 09:45 PM
  Above is a spoon by William Durgin a relative of Freeman Durgin of St. Louis. I post this as an example of a berry spoon from the late 1800s from the U.S. I also have several English spoons that were converted to berry spoons although the ones I have were from the 1830s rather than the 18th century. It appears that these spoons were very poplar in the late 1800s and companies often found it economically to simply redo older spoons into the latest fashion. Actually, most of the berry spoons I have noticed were older spoons re-worked to be in the latest style. The Durgin spoon shows that at least some new spoons were created to meet the need. Were many English companies making new spoons or were they simply redoing older ones? The Durgin spoon also has a different gold wash than I normally see on the English versions as it has a matte finish. Perhaps this finish was the style poplar in the U.S. IP: Logged |
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Paul Lemieux Posts: 1792 |
posted 02-01-2007 01:47 AM
I'm not even convinced that the chased bowl is original to the Durgin spoon. Suspect the chasing was added later. I once had a Wood & Hughes "Angelo" pattern table spoon (which pattern was patented in 1878) with a similarly chased bowl. The spoon was also engraved with a dated 1947 inscription, so I suspect the Angelo spoon's bowl was chased at that time as well. Would not be surprised if your Durgin spoon's bowl was enhanced sometime in the 20th century, long after the spoon itself was made. I have a seen a lot of crummy 20th English EPNS salad/berry/serving spoons with faux-chased bowls, which indicates that the chased bowl style was popular well into the 20th C. [This message has been edited by Paul Lemieux (edited 02-01-2007).] IP: Logged |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 02-01-2007 05:27 AM
 I wanted to provide photos of the front and back of the bowl for your review. On the bottom left of the bowl is a small crack. I'm not sure if this is prior damage or a result of the chasing. The end of the spoons curve up which is something I can never see in a seller's photos. So I don't know if they are Old English or Hanoverian as there is not rat tails or other visible features. Like the metamorphosis into the fruit spoon, could this bending of the tip have been done later to suit current fashion? IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 02-01-2007 08:42 AM
Is there any evidence that any spoons were originally made this way? Could it be that the transformation of all these spoons was accomplished by a cottage industry rather than the original silver manufacturers? I suppose that original advertising materials from silver flatware manufacturers would be the best evidence. Most of the old sterling berry spoons that I have seen have been attractive and seeming accomplished in a professional manner. Given the availability of these spoons today they must have been very popular. Today old flatware is modified by large replacement houses into potato servers and other strange forms that seem odd to me. But I do see them at shows and in advertisements so someone must like them. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 02-01-2007 09:58 AM
There is of course a good deal of detail work done by hand on these -- at least the better ones -- but my understanding is that the main design was added using dies in a press, and that that's why they began to be so widely made in the earlier 19th century, when such heavy dies and presses became available. It was a way to renew older pieces, bringing them to a more up-to-date style. I can't say I've ever seen an old advertisement offering such services, though.... [This message has been edited by FWG (edited 02-01-2007).] IP: Logged |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 02-01-2007 10:08 AM
Aside from the decoration, the construction and size of the spoons seems identical. Yet the marks reveal that these were indeed made in different periods as well as cities. IP: Logged |
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DB Posts: 252 |
posted 02-01-2007 06:37 PM
From all the later chased silver items, the later chased spoons are probably the only silver items which are not devalued by it. I see them regularly at auction fetching higher prices than ordinary coffee spoons left in their original state. For all other items like teapots, coffeepots, etc.etc. later chasing is "the kiss of death" and devalues the item considerably. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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Primroy Posts: 42 |
posted 02-02-2007 08:04 PM
Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to illuminate this topic. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 12-18-2008 05:29 PM
Hi all, Ms Burstyn is on the right track, "From all the later chased silver items, the later chased spoons are probably the only silver items which are not devalued by it. I see them regularly at auction fetching higher prices than ordinary coffee spoons left in their original state." The operative word is "later"... I have had American sterling tablespoons with aftermarket berried bowls in Tiffany patterns, Wave Edge, and Fanuel, and in Chantilly and Fairfax, and because they are unusual pieces and stand out they bring a small premium over an unchanged spoon. While the more common British "berried bowl" spoons, (late 18th c. on) of all sizes, seem to do OK or a little better than their unchanged counterparts at auction, the earlier ones (Geo II and back) suffer because they have been modified. Want to see a grown man cry..? Show him a pair of William and Mary service spoons with berried bowls and added bellflower decorations on the front and back of the handles. Marc IP: Logged |
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