Monograms & the engraver - SMP Silver Salon Forums

SM Publications

Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.

SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!

General Silver Forum

Silver Salon internal search
or

REGISTER (click here)

How to Post Photos

SMP Silver Salon Forums
tline

General Silver Forum
tline3

Monograms & the engraver

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone!

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Author	Topic: Monograms & the engraver
bonniegaia Posts: 48 Registered: Jul 2008	posted 07-19-2008 12:29 PM [26-1698] Some beginners' questions: bascall [end of a thread on the Dot youth set Maker? Sterling 'Youth Set' ca 1878 ] mentioned that monogram style was patented. Are/were monogram styles usually patented? How does the engraver steady the hand when engraving? It must be incredibly difficult to execute some of the more calligraphic monograms? Are the old ones entirely by hand or is there some machine involved? Are there collectors who collect beautiful or unusual monograms? Does the quality of a monogram influence the desirability of a piece of silver? What happens if the engraver makes a mistake? Are there any re-do options? Can all machine engraving be identified as such? IP: Logged
IJP Posts: 326 Registered: Oct 2004	posted 07-19-2008 06:49 PM quote: How does the engraver steady the hand when engraving? It must be incredibly difficult to execute some of the more calligraphic monograms? I certainly don't know very much about engraving (yet), but I've had the opportunity to watch a local engraver at work. I seem to recall that for smaller pieces he had a rotating device that held the object steady and provided nearly any angle he required to work from. Of course, he still had to have a sure and steady hand. I also remember that he used a trick to make sure his work was always consistent, especially with multiple pieces which needed the same engraving work, transferring the monogram or image to the piece with a substance that could be easily wiped away once he traced it with his graver or burin. quote: Are there collectors who collect beautiful or unusual monograms? Does the quality of a monogram influence the desirability of a piece of silver? I believe that a monogram or engraving that is consistent with the era of a piece does in fact raise its desirability, though it's a subjective issue. I feel a lot better about a monogram in Japanesque style on an Aesthetic mixed-metals piece than I would about, say, Old English lettering, but that's just my opinion. Naturally, if the monogram or engraving suits important provenance (e.g. the initials of a historically important person), that would most certainly raise the value, I should think. quote: Can all machine engraving be identified as such? I couldn't identify the differences between hand-engraved work, and machine-engraved, as I don't yet have the skills or knowledge. However, just today I was speaking to my engraver friend, who was inspecting an important athletic trophy item he was commissioned to engrave by hand, and he noted as he examined it through his loupe that much of the existing work was done by machine. IP: Logged
Kimo Posts: 1627 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 07-21-2008 09:23 AM There are mixed ideas about monogramming being a good thing, an undesireable thing, or of no consequence. For people who wish to use silver as practical objects I think you will find a preponderance who see monogramming as a significant detraction as they would wish to have their own monograms. It is not uncommon to see old silver being sold with removed monograms - though that is not very desireable to collectors since the monogram area will have been flattened down to take away enough silver to get the new surface below the depth of the engraving. For people who tend to be more pure collectors, if the monogramming is done artistically by a master engraver at the time that the silver object was made I think most see it as a desireable part of the history of the object. You need to keep in mind that not all engraving you see on old silver is actually 'of the period' since tastes have changed over the years. For example, it is not uncommon to find very old silver that should be quite plain to be tarted up with heavy engravings that came into popularity in later decades to give it new life by making it more fashionable for the era. Of course, if the monogram is a part of the provenance that the object was owned by a very famous person then it is very desireable, but fakery of this is unfortunately quite common. And speaking of fakery, forged markings of desireable makers is also too common in today's market place so one needs to be chary of any object being sold with markings of well known makers that command high premiums. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 07-21-2008).] IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 07-21-2008 10:29 AM Take a piece of early 19th c silver or 18th c and look at the engraving through a magnifying glass. Now look at a new piece of silver with engraving using the magnifying glass. Yes, there are distinct differences. When using a manual graver most letters are made up of two or more strokes. You can actually tell where the engraver started a letter and where he/she finished. I will try to put up a photo of a letter done by hand engraving. For the particulars of engraving I will have to leave that to an engraver. I can not get enough resolution due to the 640 mp limitation SMP imposes on photos to show the strokes. [This message has been edited by argentum1 (edited 07-21-2008).] As I collect only early 19th century and, when I can afford it. 18th century. The issue of desirability of engraving is and I say this jokingly - remove engraving and I will break your fingers. The object and any engraving is a part of its history and a possible clue to those who went before us. Would you erase the words above Lincoln in the Lincoln Monument. [This message has been edited by argentum1 (edited 07-21-2008).] IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 07-21-2008 01:28 PM Some time ago I've got a book in which 21 trades/(handi)crafts were mentioned and demonstrated. The engraver use a lot of punches, difference in sizes, fine and blunt. (photo 1 shows a lot which is used by the engraver). Second photo is used (personal idea of engraver) a open ring which was the end of a paper-knife). The punch is used like a lever at the rand of the ring. For deeper lines the engraver is using bowed punches(photo 3). At photo 4 you can see the curling's of silver will be removed by point of the punch. The fingers are the important instruments of the engraver. The power of the forefinger and the middle finger must be firm as a rock. The engraver. photo 5. IP: Logged
middletom Posts: 467 Registered: May 2004	posted 07-21-2008 05:04 PM The man who used to do the engraving for ONC was Frank Kulik of Amesbury,MA. He showed me the tools he used, the biggest being the engraving ball which had a clamp type holder on a flat section of what otherwise was a sphere. The flatware or jewelry item was held in the clamp and the ball was placed into a depression in a sand-filled leather bag. Then he could turn the item to any angle he needed for working. He said that he would work on all cuts that were in the same direction, then turn the ball and do all further cuts which were in a different direction from the first. That way he didn't have to constantly relocate the ball any more than was necessary. IP: Logged
bonniegaia Posts: 48 Registered: Jul 2008	posted 07-21-2008 05:05 PM Thank you IJP, Kimo, argentum1 & silverhunter - Interesting. It does sound a big sacrilegious to remove a monogram. But then, I am guilty of wondering if it's possible to melt down odd bits of sterling to make jewelry... Argentum1 - You got me to examine some monograms. Before your post I only looked at monograms to try to ID the initials and match with family members. I tried to find one where I could see the lift and restart of a hand engraver. I found one wee spoon (salt spoon?) which I discovered at the bottom of the silver chest and never remember seeing before. TIn the script monogram 'MAH' (the 'H' has looped tops) doesn't seem to match any known family members, and at first I didn't even think it's silver because there is no sterling or 925 marking, just a maker mark. But it looks like really thin - thumbnail thin- silver. The peaks of the script letters don't 'connect.' At first I thought it was just that the top part of the spoon was perhaps more worn, but on looking very closely I can see that those peaks of the letters are actually made with different strokes although at first glance they appear to connect. The same thing is more apparent elsewhere in the monogram in a looping, calligraphic sweep, between the thin and thick segments - there is a hardly noticeable space as the line changes! Thanks for helping me 'see' another level of interest in old silver! silverhunter - Thanks for the instructive photos of the engraving process. I have a new appreciation of the hand engraver! ~Bonnie IP: Logged
silverhunter Posts: 704 Registered: Jul 2007	posted 07-22-2008 08:05 PM I think there is a person(sorry, I forgot his name) but when he reads your question about recycle old silver (sterling) he can give you good advise. It's interesting for to know how to do it and perhaps I will follow a curious about working with silver in the future. I just opened today a handle of a old knife (second alloy 833/1000)silver and cleaned it with hot water and soda and tin foil. I think the old silver in this case must be so clean as possible to start melting it. How to catch to melting silver or concentrate it together, after melting it? Does it has to cool off without using cold water, doesn't it will make contact with for instance a iron scale? I don't nothing about it so have to learn about this also before trying it myself. Good luck and Jensen will now what artistic people also can produce in the future sure in the U.S.A.! IP: Logged

All times are ET	next newest topic \| next oldest topic
Administrative Options: Close Topic \| Archive/Move \| Delete Topic
	Hop to:

Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a

^1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

^2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

^3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.

| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver