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 Does Provenance Affect Your Appreciation?
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| Author | Topic: Does Provenance Affect Your Appreciation? |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 03-22-2014 07:45 PM
  
Does the provenance impact your appreciation of a piece of silver? I have a new piece that I will be sharing later but I wanted to ask this question and see what people say before I post pics and the story behind my new piece. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 03-22-2014 09:10 PM
Certainly. I have several pieces that don't bear, on their own, a second look. The story each carries, however, alters them immeasurably, always in general and sometimes on a very personal level. For research purposes, it is valuable and often times vital in tracing a maker or establishing a date/chronology of work. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 03-22-2014 09:22 PM
Hello Chase, What a question! My appreciation of silver has to do with the piece itself,. The details, workmanship etc. Provenance is secondary for me. Does it help in paying a hefty price, probably, but not for me. As in my Canova pieces by Chawner I could have cared less about the maker, I had no clue at the time who he was. It was the workmanship that did it for me. That's what it will always do it for me. Joe Blow could have owned it. Would I have liked it if it were by Paul Revere, sure! Jersey IP: Logged |
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agphile Posts: 798 |
posted 03-23-2014 02:42 PM
For me, an interesting provenance certainly adds to the attraction of a piece of silver. The greatest fun has been when a few clues provide the basis for some research rather than when a whole history is served up on a plate. I like my silver to tell a story as well as looking pretty. For most of it, the story is about the evolution of styles alongside changes in manners. In just a few cases the story is also about specific past owners, but it is all social history of one sort or another. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 03-23-2014 05:58 PM
This is a pretty good example of how a little mystery, research, and resulting provenance can enrich an otherwise fairly lackluster piece IP: Logged |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 03-23-2014 07:40 PM
So here is my piece. It is a Gorham pitcher/ewer dated 1906. The workmanship is amazing. The chasing and repousse work is great. It stands about 12" tall and is very heavy. So far everything is cool. However, engraved on one side is "From the SC Division of the Southern Cotton Assn." On the other is C.D. Smith (could be E.D. Smith). From my research, the Southern Cotton Assn was a "trade" group of cotton producing states from 1905 to 1908. One of the founders was Ellison D Smith of SC. He was a senator from SC for many years. If you check out his Wikipedia page, you will see that he wasn't a very nice person. His nickname was "Cotton Ed" and his goal during his years in Congress was to "keep the n**** down and cotton prices up". In this case, at least to me, I think the provenance has tarnished (pardon the pun) the beauty of this piece. PS I haven't finished my research so there are still apiece or to still missing. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-23-2014 09:49 PM
quote: The past is past, so think of it only as history - a dark chapter to be sure, but one that can't be changed. Be glad that things are better now. To me it just adds to the fascination of the piece (which is a very nice one, too) as there is more of a story behind it than if it only belonged to someone you couldn't trace.. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 03-23-2014 09:53 PM
quote: Nonsense. Shall we pull down the Colosseum because Tiberius, Nero, and Claudius were not very nice? You have a record of history -- good, bad, or indifferent. Folks who hide from the harsh light of the past will spend their lives sitting in the dark, draped in illusions. You have a perfect teaching tool that can bring alive a stage full of character and controversy, giving what the myopic might call 'tainted' goods a new and vital life. [This message has been edited by wev (edited 03-23-2014).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 03-23-2014 11:03 PM
I would have the engraving removed and then sell the pitcher. I know too many that would not consider this pitcher “tainted”. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 03-23-2014 11:18 PM
quote: Again, nonsense. Why not just melt it down and be done with it, sealing its malicious origins for all time? It is history in all its nasty reality and truth. Sell it if you like or give it away or just live with it, but don't desecrate it. It is as much of our national history as any object or document in the Library of Congress. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 03-24-2014 09:12 AM
Lovely pitcher. Provenance is always a plus but when it brings up negatives then I find it hard to live with... WWII, torture, prison art, etc. this has a slight odor from that period of prejudice. My favorite things in silver have everything, beauty, originality, superb workmanship, perfect condition and provenance. I can count on one hand the objects that fit this description. A bust of king George III given to his doctor, a set of 3 boxed, Chinoiserie tea caddies in the MFA Boston, a casket with a story of love and mystery that still is unsolved, also in Boston and a few others that although I have forgotten the details the glow still lingers. The above is rare and untouchable and I still love many things that are missing one, two, even three from the list above. So if you are asking there is no good answer from me, it is personal whether you want to keep the story. Just a thought to the remove the mono comment... Please do not remove monos have them filled with a TIG welder. There are a few doing this and it means that no harm is done and done well it's an invisible fix. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-24-2014 01:42 PM
quote: Altering an antique by removals lessens its value, not only for the damage it may cause, but also for the loss of part of its history. It is not recommended unless the piece had already been altered objectionably or otherwise damaged, its value already decreased, and the removal would be a restoration of the original condition. Some alterations, however, usually might best be left alone - an example would be the addition of a functional spout to a tankard - its removal alters its history and leaves a still altered piece. IP: Logged |
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taloncrest Posts: 169 |
posted 03-24-2014 09:05 PM
I'd just keep it and enjoy it. You only know about it because he was prominent. Even with the negatives to his beliefs and personality, he is still a big part of history, particularly in South Carolina, and that provenance adds some value and interest to your pitcher. My only pieces with any known provenance that add value to me are much more mundane; a Revere bowl engraved to a merchant by his church not long before I was born, but before the town became an important, sizable city, and a service plate engraved to Mrs. Jan Peerce in 1931. I would have never purchased that one had I not known who Jan Peerce was. [This message has been edited by taloncrest (edited 03-24-2014).] IP: Logged |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 03-24-2014 09:41 PM
Chase poses a very interesting question. In general, I guess I come down on the side of the object, which is innocent. And, let's face it -- we can only know some of any object's history, just as we can only some of the character of any one owner. But in the end, the question is very personal, and uncomfortable issues around provenance can take many forms. Someone once gave me a book that he had found at his town's 'Swap Shed' -- a book that he correctly guessed would be of great interest to me. As I later thumbed through it, I discovered that the original owner had written her name on the inside, a name I recognized because she had been murdered a year before the book was given to me. We were not very different in age or circumstance, had connections to the same town, and of course shared an interest in the book's subject matter. I lived with the book for a month or so, after which I donated it to a library. And no, I did not obliterate or cut the name out. But there is always that difference between current events and history. I don't know how I would have felt if the book and the signature were 100 years old. IP: Logged |
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chase33 Posts: 362 |
posted 03-25-2014 08:50 PM
Thanks for everyone's input. I tried to post last night but I kept getting a 500 Internal Error message. However that just gave me more time to think of my response. First the easy part: I have never and will never remove a monogram or other inscription from a piece of silver. I love them and think they are pieces of art in and of themselves. Second easy part: I am keeping the piece. That hasn't been an option and wasn't the reason for asking my original question. I asked because all of the stories I have read on here (and I haven't read them all!) and other places all seem to have pieces with "positive" provenance that enhance the piece. While I agree that there a lot of beautiful and amazing buildings that have "dark" past, that past is usually in the way in the past and far removed from my everyday life. In SC, if you don't know, there still flies the Confederate flag on the grounds of our State House and race still plays a large and unfortunate part of our State. Where I work on the weekends, the owner tells the story of his encounter with a "proper" Southern lady who refused a $50 bill because it has U.S. Grant on the front. I am sure that others could tell similar stories (about race or other issues) about where they live. If I were to sell it, I'm also sure that its provenance would increase the value because of its history and probably the new owner would think it was a positive history. All in all, better or worse, I am keeping it since the beauty and workmanship of the piece far outweighs its negatives for me. And if anyone asks about the inscription, I'll lie....just kidding, I'll tell them the truth especially my nephews, one of which will be a future owner. Thanks again for everyone's input. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 03-25-2014 10:07 PM
Chase! Well done! History is just that, good bad or indifferent. We have to live with it & hopefully learn & do better for the future. If we had no bad past how could we not improve on making a better future. We may all dislike or hate for the moment, but I for one hope we can reflect & see it does no good & eats at our soul. That is not a good thing. Do I make any sense....... Jersey IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 03-27-2014 08:45 PM
What an interesting topic. I care very much about the history of objects, and I always long to know more. Objects with horrible histories have at least as much to teach as ones with glorious histories. For example, I'm thinking of a pair of tiny shackles, sized for a toddler, at the New-York Historical Society. The first time I saw them I had a strong physical reaction: I started shaking and crying. I would not want them in my home. I wish they'd never been forged. But given that they WERE made, I'm glad I saw them. They helped me understand something that everyone needs to know, both about history and about what human beings were and are capable of. I expect a lot of my silver has a tainted history, since surely a lot of it was made for people who grew rich exploiting other people--they're the ones who could afford luxury goods like fancy teapots, after all. I might like the teapots less if I knew the details. But I still wish I knew the details. IP: Logged |
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