SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
American Sterling Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  American Sterling Silver
tline3open  Weight Symbols

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Weight Symbols
Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-05-2000 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Carpenter's book Gorham Silver 1831-1981 gives weight symbols for Gorham flatware:
T Trade 9 Troy oz. per 12 teaspoons
E Extra 10 Troy oz. per 12 teaspoons
  Regular 12 Troy oz. per 12 teaspoons
H Heavy 14 Troy oz. per 12 teaspoons
M Massive 15 Troy oz. per 12 teaspoons

Two pieces seen recently have "&" and "P" on them. Does anyone know the significance of these marks?

IP: Logged

Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-27-2000 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Now we come across an 'S' beside a 'T', within separate diamonds, in the same position.

Does anyone have an idea what this means?

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-27-2000 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's a little more fuel for the fire. For one, I have a piece of "Mothers" with the same ST mark. I don't know what it means either.

I recently purchased a set of Gorham engraved pattern spoons. They have the standard Gorham sterling trademarks. On the left side of the mark is a large S, and on the right is a large, loopy M very similar to that used by Tiffany since 1907. Any ideas what these marks could mean?

Come on, Sam Hough. We need that book!

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-04-2001 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here are pictures of the pattern and marks I mentioned in my last post

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 03-20-2002 04:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See post entiled: Weight marks on Gorham Chantilly
I'd like to suggest an experiment.

If Dovin, Richard, Brent and anyone else with a teaspoon could accurately weight (in troy ozs.) a spoon, Then we might be able to extrapolate what the symbols might mean.

(the weight of one teaspoon in troy ozs.) X 12 = Troy oz. per 12 teaspoons

IP: Logged

Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1768
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 03-20-2002 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brent--perhaps one of the marks on your engraved teaspoon, either the "S" or the funny "M", is the mark of the workman responsible for the spoon's engraving.

IP: Logged

cyberdober
unregistered
iconnumber posted 03-25-2002 10:37 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a mystery Gorham object which I am about to submit to this forum. On the bottom, underneath the Gorham silver mark, is engraved "Starr&Marcus"???

IP: Logged

texy

Posts: 4
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 07-30-2004 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for texy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello! New member here, and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading the valuable posts in these forums. I found this site while trying to research weight markings on my Gorham "Chantilly" flatware.

This thread touches on exactly what I'm trying to find -- what do the weight symbols mean?

To add to the confusion, I have teaspoons with "R" in a circle and others with "K" in a square. Always assumed (yes, I know, a bad thing) that the "R" was probably "regular weight" but the "K" has really baffled me. Anyone know? Both versions have old Gorham marks.

I can attempt to post pics, if needed.

Again, great forums here, and an incredibly valuable resource for ordinary folks like me. smile

Lynn

IP: Logged

Cheryl and Richard

Posts: 154
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 07-30-2004 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Lynn -
Welcome to our frustration. Yes, please post photos for us to see your findings.

IP: Logged

texy

Posts: 4
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 07-30-2004 10:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for texy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chantilly teaspoon with "E" weight symbol:

Chantilly teaspoon with "K" weight symbol:

Chantilly teaspoon with "R" weight symbol

Lynn


IP: Logged

texy

Posts: 4
Registered: Jul 2004

iconnumber posted 07-30-2004 11:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for texy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Richard and Cheryl, have you also noticed inconsistencies within the Chantilly line in individual pieces? Some of my pieces, although carrying the same manufacturing markings, have slight differences from piece to piece. Some teaspoons have slightly narrower bowls, although lengths are the same (eliminating the possibility that some are "5 o'clocks"). On some of the smaller salad/fish/dessert forks, the tines are slightly different (some more rounded, while others are flatter) and the throat of the fork sometimes has a decorative border, but sometimes does not. Again, same older manufacturing markings, so expectation would be that they would be the same. Ha!

Someone, somewhere, must know what these marks mean...... right? confused

It may be of little or no importance, but the position of the mark seems to be tied to the shape of the mark. The marks in diamonds are higher on the handle, at the top of the scroll; the circles appear to be in the middle of the scroll; and the box is lowest point on the handle, nearer the bowl. Wonder if that holds true consistently within the line? Incidentally, the spoons with the boxed-K are the ones with the slightly narrower bowl.

Years ago, someone told me that the "P" in a circle indicated "place size" pieces. Can't verify that, though. The only two pieces I have that would (I think) be place size are 2 7" forks I bought years ago for the kids to use because the dinner size ones (7 1/2") were so very awkward for their smaller hands to manage. However, they have the T for trade weight.

[This message has been edited by texy (edited 07-31-2004).]

IP: Logged

wessex96

Posts: 54
Registered: Feb 2009

iconnumber posted 08-08-2010 05:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wessex96     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Further to the post 'Gorham Marks, I'm stumped' in the New Members Post (dated 6 Aug 10) was there any follow up from Scott's request above (20 Mar 2002)?

I have a Gorham teaspoon in the Etruscan pattern, length 13.7 cm or approx. 5.4 inches, which is stamped with an 'S' and 'T' in separate diamonds. According to my (domestic) scales it weighs 16 grams. At 1 gram = 0.03215 troy ounces, this works out at approx. 6.17 troy ounces for a dozen.

'S' is not listed in Carpenter's table of weight symbols. Could the 'S' and 'T' perhaps stand for 'Sub-trade'...?

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 08-08-2010 05:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wessex96,

It been many years.. thanks for reviving this post.

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 10-15-2010 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From a Versailles spoon.
  • length = 5.875 inches
  • weight = 1.002504 troy oz. / 1.1 Avoirdupois Oz.

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 10-15-2010 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Please correct me if I am wrong, the consensus here is that there is no visible difference between pieces with these unknown marks and regular production. That we can not see the marks as distinguishing any sort of quality issue? If so, we can rule out the marks as indicating factory seconds, different dies, different points in the life of a die and so on. In other words, the marks send no notice to the wholesale and retail trades about this particular product. Which indicates that these marks are internal to the production of the silverware.

Since the records that would explain this are most likely missing, we are left to guess. Perhaps if we look into what other trades did, we might begin to understand better.

Among china companies it was the practice to mark dishes with the initials of the supervisor of the decorating room. Apparently different supervisors produced slightly different pieces. I rarely can see it, but collectors insist that such is the case. So, these marks may be somewhat similar. They could indicate which foreman, or which shift, produced particular pieces. This would be for quality control, so that problems could be corrected.

We do know that the silver companies produced in batches. And that they waited for orders to reach a certain magnitude before producing. And that the production run was invariably more than the number ordered. IE: the minimum production that meets lowest unit cost is 1100 units but the orders are for 700, which means there are 400 speculative units. (I have not been able to find a cost accounting graph that explains how this works but have not been able to do so.)

Anyway, that is my take. These marks have something to do with internal accounting procedures.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices