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tline3open  Shiebler marks and dates?

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Author Topic:   Shiebler marks and dates?
Scott Martin
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Posts: 11377
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iconnumber posted 05-18-1999 11:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is my opinion that the following list of Shiebler marks is in date order (old to new). Does anyone have any documentation that supports or contradicts this? I am going to assume that there is no documentation. So maybe we can figure this out another way. Any suggestions or recommendations on a way to tackle this?

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Bob and Carol Carnighan

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iconnumber posted 05-19-1999 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob and Carol Carnighan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Shiebler occasionally marked a piece indicating that the patent had not yet been granted. It seems to me that this dates the piece to within a year or two of the patent date. In a quick search of a few pieces we found a Napoleon teaspoon marked "patent apl'd for" and Shiebler mark #5.

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Ulysses Dietz
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iconnumber posted 05-19-1999 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Number 3 mark can be dated to 1877 (see my input for Tiffany Persian); this is on forks and spoons in an English King pattern retailed by Tiffany. The number 5 mark appears in the same service, for pieces added to the service in the 1880s or 1890s, without the Tiffany retail mark (because they had started making their own English King). What are the dates you have for these marks?

[This message has been edited by Ulysses Dietz (edited 05-19-99).]

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Cheryl and Richard

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iconnumber posted 06-24-1999 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cheryl and Richard     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mark number 5 is seen not infrequently with the S reversed. Rarely on hollowware or place settings, for the most part the pieces with the backward S are Flora demitasse spoons, pocket knives and other 'smalls.' Does anyone know how this happened? Too many pieces have this mark for it to simply be an accident.

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Barbara
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iconnumber posted 09-19-1999 07:19 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Have any of you seen mark # 1 on a piece
of silver? If so, what pattern was it?
(I know that the mark is given in
Rainwater, with a comment that the
mark was originally that of a
silversmith named Platt.)

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hello

Posts: 200
Registered: Jun 2005

iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 07:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It just occurred to me that I have only seen mark #6 on holloware.

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Richard Kurtzman
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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 09:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't base this on documentation, but from observation I believe that mark 6 is earlier than mark 5. As far as mark 6 being used only on hollowware I am not sure, but somewhere in my addled brain is the memory of having seen it on a piece of flatware.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Richard ,

We have several items of flatware with a version of the Shiebler mark that looks was if inspired from the #6 mark. This is from the BOS, S0307, Corinthian pattern, cheese scoop:

I have only seen Mark #6 on Shiebler ephemera and on Shiebler steel. This is also from the BOS, s0191, Louvre pattern, carving knife:

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hello

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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
P.S. it's not like I've seen a ton of shiebler smile and certainly not alot of older shiebler

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Bob and Carol Carnighan

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Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob and Carol Carnighan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We have never seen mark #1.

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hello

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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 07:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just seen it on an auction not too long ago(on fiddle thread I think). I will see if I can find it back but don't know.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know we have something somewhere with #1 mark and it is most likely on holloware.... now to remember... not going to happen anytime soon. I hope someone else can post an example. I won’t hold my breath because if Bob & Carol don’t have it .....

I did remember a different Shiebler mark. This is from grape shears where the handle is sterling and with the #5 mark. The metal (steel/iron?) for the shears is marked Germany and with this mark:

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Richard Kurtzman
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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is from my post of a Shiebler sugar beet bowl in the "Most interesting Shiebler objects?" thread. It looks like #6 to me.

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 11:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does date order apply to when the die was made or when the silver item was made? This may be an important distinction: older marked pieces may have had the mark integral to the die and been made over a long period of time. Interesting question.

Does anyone know where the Shiebler business records are?

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hello

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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 11:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Probably lost when gorham bought Shiebler. What would be the most obvious effective way of dating marks is to have dated monograms and marks posted together(as I'm sure most of us realize-not my idea) Funny how something that is generally accepted to be a "negative" thing (dated monograms) are actually very usefull. The book that is being written about shiebler should also help expose the paper trail, many people have simply not heard of them, but once shiebler obtains more exposure, it may get people to realize that items they have (in terms of paper trail) would be usefull.

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Richard Kurtzman
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iconnumber posted 03-30-2006 11:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When Textron took over Gorham in the 1960s they threw out container loads of paper material. It is my belief that most of this (if not all) was related to the companies that Gorham took over: Whiting, Durgin etc. Is it possible that Shiebler material was discarded at that time and not earlier?

[This message has been edited by Richard Kurtzman (edited 03-30-2006).]

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Paul Lemieux

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iconnumber posted 04-03-2006 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I always thought #6 came before #5.

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hello

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iconnumber posted 04-05-2006 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hello     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would agree with that. (turns out I was completely out to lunch on #6 being only on holloware-I have seen a bunch of flatware pieces with it recently on a popular auction site.)

Especially because it seems that it tends to appear on pieces that are do not fit into shieblers "patterns" in general. I.e. holloware chrysanthemum pieces tend to have #5. That and simply the fact that (I think) it tends to show up much less often.

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