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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Sterling Silver
 McKinley Memorial Book
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| Author | Topic: McKinley Memorial Book |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-09-2008 11:50 AM
  
[31-0001]
This thread was originally started in a Silver Salon Forum private Silver Caucus Room. This thread has been edited to eliminate conflicts with the public SSF Guidelines and is now being made public. <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Greetings folks and thanks for joining in. As noted in the invite, the piece in question is a Tiffany produced memorial book for the death of President McKinley. It was commissioned by Trinity Church, Wall Street NYC. It appears, from the wording of the colophon, that at least two copies were produced, one for the widow and one for the State Department. Here are some pictures: The book is about 12" x 8" with a soft shagreen leather binding and 8 vellum pages. The silver plaque, unmarked, is about 3" x 2" and stands proud 1/4" at the midpoint. The book was obtained by my friend in a large lot of books from the library of a deceased collector/dealer in Canton OH. His widow does not know where it was purchased, but did say he had it for 50 years or more. I have contacted the church, but records from that period are not available. The head librarian at the McKinley Library checked her holdings; they have nearly a dozen other memorial books, but nothing on record similar to this. I have tried repeatedly to contact the Tiffany archives, but have received no response. To the questions: Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-09-2008 12:29 PM
As you know I have reached out to Janet Zapata but have not heard back. I believe you have reached out to Bill Hood and he is unable to find the time. I am hopeful that one of our other participants will be able to shed some light on this very interesting puzzle. I, like you, am very interested in learning more. If it is truly a one (or few) of a kind then the best thing for your friend to do is put it up for auction and to make sure the reserve is at least as high as the "dozen other memorial books" may have realized at auction (adjusted for inflation). The marketplace will determine the price. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-09-2008 12:44 PM
1. no 2. no There is no indication that there were/were not other "attested" or non attested copies - you can interpret it either way. Can the McKinley librarian tell you what the custom was with the other books in their possession? The fact that they specify "two attested copies" may imply that there were other copies. If there were only two produced then the provenance would raise the value; otherwise,??? Search for other memorial books, perhaps??? Otherwise an auction would seem the way to go, letting the market set the value. You might try to get as opinion from a Sotheby's or Christie's "expert" - since they have changed policies to handle only big ticket items anymore, they could reject it out of hand, or suggest submitting it to them. The Tiffany cachet givess some value above just another memorial; otherwise, without provenance, the church association might influence it up or down in some way - if this practice were customary at the time, there may have been many churches that produced these, which would depress the value somewhat. Just thinking out loud. [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 02-12-2008).] IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-09-2008 12:45 PM
What is engraved on the silver? It looks like it might be Latin. If it is Latin then I hope someone will translate. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-09-2008 12:45 PM
Ta, Scott The memorial books at the McKinley were all received by the family at the time of his death and were included in the gift establishing the library. None were purchased, as far as the librarian can tell. I have not found any auction records of a comparable piece, though various letters, certificates, etc do show up occasionally. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-09-2008 01:12 PM
I don't have a translation (I'll get one), but it gives the churches founding date of 1697. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-09-2008 02:20 PM
If the medallion is specific to that church (or denomination), they may have had a number of them (or the entire covers) made to have on hand for such uses. IP: Logged |
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doc Posts: 728 |
posted 01-09-2008 03:30 PM
I am still working on the translation of the text on the inner banner, but the outside text roughly translates to "With God's Help The Seal of the Trinity Church New York in America 1697". From this, I would hazard a guess that this is the official seal of Trinity Church. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-09-2008 05:35 PM
Doc, it sounds as if you are correct. Now I am curious about the Sun headed, lumpy, winged figure and the rest of the symbolism (i.e., the ship & flag, the woman, the book, branches)? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-09-2008 05:54 PM
Here is a better picture of the banner The plaque is the church seal, which is embossed on the colophon page, as well. I have no idea what the symbolism of the sunny fellow in the rock shirt might be; he looks like something out of the Brothers Grimm. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 01-09-2008 06:37 PM
Neat item! Is that an ink "Tiffany" signature? Where and how is is marked Tiffany? It seems safe to say that Tiffany contracted out most, if not all of the production. They certainly weren't printers or bookbinders, but they could get just about anything a customer wanted and put their name to it. I don't think you will get anywhere with the Tiffany company. From what I hear, the treat their archives as precious, expensive commodity for SERIOUS researchers only. I wouldn't beat my head against that wall. Let us know how it comes out! Brent IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-09-2008 10:10 PM
A wild guess at the motto: something to the effect that "Swearing [allegiance] Once Will Not Be Enough." IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-10-2008 02:20 PM
Thank you all for your input. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-10-2008 04:27 PM
Any chance we will get to see the Tiffany marks up close? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-10-2008 04:43 PM
I will get them this afternoon IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-10-2008 05:38 PM
Here are the pictures in pencil on the colophon: stamped on the outer box (readable in person): I checked again closely and there are no marks on the plaque. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-10-2008 06:13 PM
How do you think they mounted the silver to the book? Any chance it can be removed and the back can be inspected/photographed? I suspect you would have already done this if it could be done but I thought I would ask. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-10-2008 06:27 PM
It is hard to say for sure, but I think I can feel a pair of stud tops through silk lining on the inside of the front cover. I have seen the same technique used on other books and have used it myself on portfolio boxes. Removal would not be possible without cutting/lifting the inner lining. Tempting, but I don't think I'll suggest it. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-14-2008 10:29 AM
My, my, those Episcopalians thought mighty well of themselves. Trinity Wall St. is probably the richest Episcopal church in America, as they own most of lower Manhattan. They have a small parish now, but back then the titans of NY finance (those who were neither Jewish nor Catholic) all supported Trinity Wall St. I can't imagine why they would have made such a lavish (and pompous) gesture at McKinley's death, other than the idea that the Episcopal Church was formerly referred to as "The Republican Party at Prayer." McKinley is a great one because he was killed (yes, assassinated presidents are more valuable than those that lived into ripe old age). It is a beautiful thing, and would be something of interest for any McKinleyana buff. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-17-2008 11:06 AM
Thank you, Ulysses. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-19-2008 09:06 AM
Well, so far my query made the folks at the archives look at WEV's query to them, and then ask me if it was he who "offered the piece to me." They have not offered any information to me so far--which makes me suspect that either they don't know or are too busy. Tiffany did such a huge business in special orders, that they may well not have any records of this specific thing. Many of the archives were lost over the years, before they decided to preserve them. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-19-2008 11:52 AM
Over the last few years Tiffany has been quietly buying back historic pieces. My interpretation is that the more interest by Tiffany to re-acquire a piece, then the more silent, obtuse and indirect the responses are from the archives. I believe they don’t want to push up prices by revealing too much. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-24-2008 11:49 AM
Yet Tiffany's routinely breaks records at auction to buy back things--as it just did at Christie's January sale, for the "Burmese" jar from the 1900 and 1901 World's fairs. But I digress. I think, Tiffany or not, the book should be shown to the experts on presidential memorabilia (there's a guy at Christie's who has helped selling U. S. Grant material over the past years). I think the market potential is bigger there than at Tiffany's itself. Next to that, the McKinley library, New York Historical Society, Museum of the City of New York... IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-25-2008 11:02 AM
I did run it by Christies (just a front door query, as I have no contacts there). They stated that it was not of sufficient interest or value to bother with. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-25-2008 12:06 PM
Remember that Sotheby and (especially)Christies have recently revised their policies and will no longer accept any but the most highly valuaed items, so that statement should be taken as "for THEM to bother with." "Second line" auction houses (like Skinner's) might be more accommodating) IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 02-13-2008 03:48 PM
This thread was originally started in a Silver Salon Forum private Silver Caucus Room. This thread has been edited to eliminate conflicts with the public SSF Guidelines and is now being made public. <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 02-13-2008 04:45 PM
The motto is swearing and it has to do with future time not increasing. So if allegiance is implied this could fit Swarter's suggestion. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 02-13-2008).] IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 02-13-2008 06:20 PM
Hello! What a wonderful book! Has anyone considered contacting John Loring regarding this matter? Also, if there are illustrations what company did them. Perhaps a clue there. Thanks for listening. Jersey IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 02-13-2008 10:10 PM
Is it possible that the binding for this book was a stock item, and the text was added to suit the occasion? Sorry, just noticed I'm repeating a point that was already made. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 02-13-2008).] IP: Logged |
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Cheryl and Richard Posts: 154 |
posted 02-15-2008 03:02 PM
Since we are located literally around the corner from Trinity Church, we visited it in order to see if the image on the front of this book is attributable to the Church. The image is, apparently, the Great Seal of Trinity Church (according to the person manning the Gift Shop in the Church.) The figure in the center is known as the Trinity Angel. As far as we can tell, there are two small plaques replicating the Great Seal on the Church, one on the exterior church building in the southeast corner (cornerstone of a 1965 addition), and the other on the Churchyard fence, incorporated in a 2004 plaque commemorating the 250th anniversary of the founding of Columbia University (then King's College) at Trinity Church. It is possible that the image is incorporated into interior decorative elements of the Church as well, although any such elements were not visible in our visit. The current building is the third building on the Church site, consecrated in 1846. It is possible that the Great Seal was incorporated into architectural elements of the previous two buildings (the first destroyed by fire and the second damaged beyond repair in a snowstorm.) IP: Logged |
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Cheryl and Richard Posts: 154 |
posted 02-19-2008 04:56 PM
This is the response from the Trinity Church archivist to my inquiry asking for information on the seal: "The official seal of Trinity Parish has no specific location in the Church, but is used on official documents of Trinity Parish. Please see the attached document for an explanation of the official seal of Trinity Parish. W. Flynn IP: Logged |
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Cheryl and Richard Posts: 154 |
posted 02-27-2008 06:30 PM
We returned to photograph and share what we saw at Trinity Church. First, the cornerstone from a 1965 addition to the church. Then, the plaque for Columbia University. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 03-07-2008 11:01 AM
Could someone send me a couple of the pictures--if they wish. Now I have the Tiffany archives interested in seeing images. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 03-07-2008 11:16 AM
In your browser right click on any of the above images and select "save image (picture) as". Also you could suggest they join the SFF discussion. In addition to the above , I have sent you a PDF file of this thread. IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 03-07-2008 02:38 PM
Or if anyone is using a Mac with an old one-button mouse (and hasn't yet figured out this trick) a Control-Click combination is equivalent to a right-click. IP: Logged |
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