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Author Topic:   is this a fake
Amber Goldstein

Posts: 6
Registered: Oct 2006

iconnumber posted 10-09-2006 10:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Amber Goldstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does the S. Kirk & Son Inc. 925/1000 exist. In Rainwater it shows only S. Kirk and Son Inc. Sterling. No Inc. with a 925/1000. Are there fake Kirk marks or is this mark possibly an overlap since the 925/1000 is used in earlier pieces. thanks

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rian

Posts: 169
Registered: Jan 2006

iconnumber posted 10-10-2006 08:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Amber, welcome to the forum. Could you tell us a little bit about yourself and your interest in silver? I have some Kirk in the Mayflower pattern which was made over a long period of time. I've checked, but none of the marks match yours.

It would be useful if you could post a picture or at the very least describe your piece in detail. Perhaps someone more familiar with Baltimore silver could help you.

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Amber Goldstein

Posts: 6
Registered: Oct 2006

iconnumber posted 10-10-2006 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Amber Goldstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am a 66 year old lady that got an interest in passing history and value down to my granddaughter. Although I have always
loved things from the past.
I selected silver, because it is strong, lasts a long time ,can be incredibly beautiful and tells a story. It reminds me of the old war stories my German Husband would tell me . My favorites story being : the families would bury the silver in the backyard, or melt it down and put it in the floor boards. They would when all was safe , return to dig it up and/or reshape it. It was the means to rebuild a life.
I also have a strong sense of planning for the future.
As for silver, when I was younger I had silver dinner pieces, etc. Now, it is different.I have been reading alot and trying to learn more about what is of value, what is old, what marks represent, etc. Keeps the old brain learning. Essential as one ages. I took an interest in American silver because I am an American and right now rather proud of it even though our world seems most fragile.
My request was about the name: S. Kirk & Son Inc. 925/1000 which does not appear in any encyclopedia. The S. Kirk & Son with a 925/1000 comes only with earlier pieces and in my search not with the Inc. I looked at a piece that was for sale with the unfound marking. I did not want to purchase it if it were not a good mark. I was wondering if it were a true mark. And that got me wondering about when a mark was fake or not.
I just bought a scanner for pictures and am looking into a camera. So perhaps, as I look and explore, I shall find something of interest to share I loved that story about the old tankard.

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rian

Posts: 169
Registered: Jan 2006

iconnumber posted 10-11-2006 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Trying to find out whether a mark was genuine brought me to this forum also. I had bought a set of teaspoons marked as Wallace and labeled sterling. However the pattern was not listed for Wallace. I was at a loss until I found it in a reference in silverplate with a Rogers mark.

When I asked the forum about the mismarking, Dale was able to tell me that Rogers and Wallace had had a business link involving the transfer of patents, and that my spoons were surely made by Wallace and were sterling.

Over and over again on this forum kind and clever people help beginning collectors with our questions and bounce ideas out for discussion. I'll have to admit that almost as interesting to me as the silver are the stories people have told about why they collect it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I look forward to seeing you on the forum.

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Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 10-11-2006 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Without a photo there is little that can be said definitively about any particular object you might have, but speaking in general terms, the Samuel Kirk firm has changed their markings many times over the years - ever since they began in 1820 and up until they were bought out by Lenox in 1979.

The "S. Kirk and Son, Inc. 925/1000" marking was their standard marking from 1924 until the 1940s sometime. They incorporated in 1924, hence the reason for the change to include the word "Inc." If your object has this marking, it should be from this time period and the marking would be correct.

As to forged markings, yes this is something you need to always consider in silver. It is not hard to do and it has been done for ages. Normally, though, you would only be faced with this concern when someone is trying to sell you an expensive object based entirely on its marking which might have been added to an otherwise inexpensive object. Or, in some cases an object may be an outright forgery which in many cases will show up to one degree or another in the lack of quality in its making, though sometimes even the experts can be fooled. In any case you need to develop an eye for what looks "right" for a given maker, especially if you decide to get into buying expensive things or things made by the big name/big price makers.

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bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 10-11-2006 04:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Amber Goldstein does not have a reference for a Kirk mark with 925/1000 and Inc together. Please gives us a source for the Kirk mark that has 925/1000 along with Inc.

Thank you!

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 10-11-2006).]

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Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 10-11-2006 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Marking is not an exact science. Indeed it seems to be hit or miss, IMHE. We would need to see a picture of the pattern to tell if it is a known Kirk one. Then we can proceed to try and figure out the mark. It can be that a mark is used solely for patent purposes, or for some obscure legal or export reason.

What is the piece exactly? Generally it is not worth forging teaspoons. Where was it found? I have always suspected that various marks have some kind of geographic meaning. Or they may refer to some internal trade issue: like exclusive rights in certain cities.

Sadly, the silver makers did not mark things for our convenience. They thought only of themselves and their purposes. Very unthoughtful of them.

One of my guesses is that there was a mark used for the general jewelry trade. Another mark was used for jobbers and promoters. The different marks allowed the maker to enforce a separation between the two. Which is good marketing. Silverplate marks are often about how something was sold. The same could very well be true of silver; in some cases I know it is. The inc may represent a brief excursion into the party plan system of selling.

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Amber Goldstein

Posts: 6
Registered: Oct 2006

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 08:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Amber Goldstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thank you bascall that is how I was trying to state it. Does S. Kirk & Son Inc go with a 925/1000. Does any one know a source that says it does?
and thank to those who answered for the information about looking for fakes. Are there any references on fakes.?
It seems it was a two part question.Your help is appreciated

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do a search by typing in kirk date marks
you will find a site www.925-1000.com and that will show you some of the many marks used by Kirk. When asking questions it is always useful to include a good photo. How someone describes something may not be how I would describe it. Welcome to the forum.

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Amber Goldstein

Posts: 6
Registered: Oct 2006

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Amber Goldstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks, I had looked there. I have never found (in the many books and places I have looked )any Kirk Mark with S. Kirk & Son Inc. 925/1000. I have lots of Kirk books. The 925/1000 was always earlier with earlier marks. And were I to have a photo , it would show S. Kirk & Son Inc. 925/1000

I have seen it on two pieces of holloware one I was going to buy and the other when I was searching searching searching. thanks for your suggestion.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The copy I have of The Story of the House of Kirk is a 1930 8th edition; being a product of Kirk themselves I consider this one of the best sources, and it shows the marks used in different periods of the firm's history in all the different sizes. As of up to 1930 they show only the word sterling being used with Inc., post-1924. But my recollection is that I've seen later pieces with the incorporated mark and the 925/1000, and I suspect they may have gone back to the old style at some point.

The requested photos would serve several purposes, least of them being to see the mark itself. As others have noted, one can often get clues to a piece's identity from seeing the piece itself - design, construction techniques, decoration, all of these can help to authenticate and identify. Even beyond that, though, is that people here are offering their knowledge, often representing years of effort, out of a passion for silver; we like to see different objects, and it's a sort of tiny reward or exchange that helps to keep people from feeling used or taken advantage of.

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argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 01:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rummaging through the internet I have found retail sites that say the INC. indicates a manufacture date of 1925 to 1931. If you do a Library of Congress search you may come up with book titles/ISBN # to search. Also try emailing pattern matching services as I have had a bit of luck with a few of them. Good luck.

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salmoned

Posts: 336
Registered: Jan 2005

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for salmoned     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the item in question has a mark you haven't been able to find an exact reference for, it should in no way hinder a purchase and may actually spur it on the basis of adding to your knowledge base. wink As implied previously by others, what should be avoided is purchasing an item with a price based on the "value" of the marks and not based on the value of the item (assuming you are not a collector of marks, but rather a collector of items).

[Were I a Kirk collector, fakes would be as interesting and valuable to my collection as 'the real thing', though I may not pay as much for them. Note - I do not intend to imply the mark you have encountered is faked.]

[This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 10-14-2006).]

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Amber Goldstein

Posts: 6
Registered: Oct 2006

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Amber Goldstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I appreciate your help. I have not sent a picture because I do not have a digital camera. I have however, ordered one. And next time when I learn the system of inserting a picture I shall. So far I have tried scanning the picture, but have not found the way to get it on the site.l This old lady is still learning. all your messages have given me much thought. Thanks.

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Amber Goldstein

Posts: 6
Registered: Oct 2006

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Amber Goldstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To FGW. I hope so much that you did not believe that I was trying to take advantage of anyone. I am just looking for knowldege .I found this site to be pure joy . I am truly amazed at the consideration of others sharing their love and knowlege of silver.

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FWG

Posts: 845
Registered: Aug 2005

iconnumber posted 10-14-2006 05:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FWG     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Amber, I didn't think that. Just wanted to point out that pictures make a nice form of exchange here - and some have felt that way, on other posts in the past, and in some cases quite rightly when sellers were just trying to get free information so they could get a better price.

I look forward to seeing your scans and photos!

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