SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
American Sterling Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  American Sterling Silver
tline3open  John Wendt 'Monroe' vs. 'Arabesque'

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   John Wendt 'Monroe' vs. 'Arabesque'
jprice33

Posts: 204
Registered: Sep 2000

iconnumber posted 01-23-2002 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jprice33     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-0550]

I have a client claiming that the image/sketch as provided in Hagan's book of 'Monroe' is in fact 'Arabesque'.

Can anyone shed some clarification here?

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 01-23-2002 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your client is correct.
Arabesque
Design Patent 3194
patented September 22, 1868

Monroe
Design Patent 5267
patented September 19, 1871

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-23-2002 09:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
True, Hagan made a mistake, which has misled a lot of people. The real MONROE is a rather plain and unassuming pattern, which also happens to be quite rare. There is so little of it available that the confusion with ARABESQUE is almost a moot point. I will see if we can't post a picture of the real MONROE in the near future.

Brent

IP: Logged

Trefid

Posts: 80
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 01-24-2002 07:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trefid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Here's a not-so-great picture of Wendt's MONROE pattern. This example also has monogram removal. But it's the only piece of it I've ever seen.

IP: Logged

bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 10-11-2008 05:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Your client is correct.
Arabesque
Design Patent 3194
patented September 22, 1868

Monroe
Design Patent 5267
patented September 19, 1871


Both of these patents are credited to BEBNHABD D. BEIDEEHASE. Were they later reassigned? Just curious, and very likely I am misunderstanding something.

IP: Logged

dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-11-2008 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rainwater shows Bernard Beiderhase as a partner in J.R. Wendt & Co. from 1866-71.

~Cheryl

IP: Logged

ellabee

Posts: 306
Registered: Dec 2007

iconnumber posted 10-11-2008 06:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beiderhase went on to form his own firm. Rainwater (5th ed.) quotes the Jeweler's mag. January 1893 obituary for Rudolph Fuchs of Fuchs & [George B.] Beiderhase, which says that Fuchs served his apprenticeship with B.D. Beiderhase & Co., New York. Going by their statement that Fuchs had been connected to the silver business for 18 of his 34 years, that would put the beginning of his apprenticeship around 1874-5. [I'm guessing that Bernard was the father or uncle of Rudolf's later partner George Beiderhase.]

As a 'Kings' pattern obsessive, I can't help but notice that Bernard Beiderhase and Rudolf Fuchs form a possible additional link between the Wendt and Dominick & Haff versions of the pattern. Supposedly the Wendt dies went to Adams & Shaw at some point after 1870 and thence to D&H (which bought Adams & Shaw). After Rudolf Fuchs' apprenticeship with Beiderhase, which would have ended c. 1881-2, he also went to Adams & Shaw and D&H, leaving in 1884.

Does anyone here know if there was a patent on the Wendt-produced version of 'Kings', and if so, the date and/or patent number? It's probably time for me to pony up for some back issues of Silver Magazine. I'm wondering whether there's any chance Beiderhase was the one issued the patent on 'Kings'.

IP: Logged

bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 10-11-2008 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cheryl & ellabee, thank you both.

I cut and pasted that name so it would be sure to be spelled correctly. Oh well!

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 10-11-2008).]

IP: Logged

dragonflywink

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 10-11-2008 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heh, sounds like maybe you used google's patent search, it's filled with misspelled names and words, some are pretty amusing.

~Cheryl

IP: Logged

bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 10-12-2008 01:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's true. Google definitely missed on that one.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices