SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
American Sterling Silver Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  American Sterling Silver
tline3open  Joseph Seymour Engraved Serving Fork

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Joseph Seymour Engraved Serving Fork
nautilusjv

Posts: 249
Registered: Nov 2008

iconnumber posted 11-26-2008 11:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nautilusjv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-1752]

A bird post for the holiday. Here is a Joseph Seymour serving fork with a beautifully engraved pattern of a bird,ferns and flowers. The fork also has a twisted stem. In trying to find out more about the pattern, I searched the forums and under a string of posts entitled "watch the birdie" smpub member Vathek posted a sugar or jam spoon with the same engraved motif. The mark on the spoon seems to indicate a date of c.1887-1900, but the motif and the twisted stem seem to suggest an earlier date as was pointed out in the "watch the birdie" post. Any new thoughts? Any information on the pattern name of this piece? Seeing Vathek's piece made me think this was not just a one off item.

Thanks and have a great Thanksgiving!
Thank you Scott editing and inserting a link to the older post.

IP: Logged

silverhunter

Posts: 704
Registered: Jul 2007

iconnumber posted 11-27-2008 07:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for silverhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice little fork it is, but the pattern is not familiar at this side, it is a nice piece of sterling silver.

The production of twisted stem at flatware pieces is also not familiar at this side, considering the start of this style.

When I look at some pieces of Norway from about 1880 they used also twisted stems for instance by production of for instance a sugar sifter and a punch ladle. I have also some 19th century long drink spoons (from Holland)also with the same twisted stems. So in America, Norway, Holland and many other countries they started around 1880 or reproduced earlier styles used for flatware patterns?.

The hand engraved pieces I always found very nice to see. But perhaps I will find your pattern or I hope there will be more (and with total information) reactions for you.

IP: Logged

Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-27-2008 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hopefully someone might recognize your pattern, but it has been my experience so far that this kind of hand engraved flatware tends not to be in full formal patterns, rather they seem to be more individual or small sets of objects. Here is a citrus spoon in my collection that falls into this category. It has the hand engraving, the twisted stem and a gold washed bowl (the gold wash does not photograph well) with a ridge down the center. I like these styles.

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 11-27-2008 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I was first in the silver biz, over 30 years ago, I worked at buying out jewelry stores. These were owned by people who had been in the jewelry trade for over 50 years. Many had trained before WW1. One in particular I remember: he showed me the most fantastic Chinese export silver tea set. Which he had made for his wife. For every gift giving event in their long marriage, he made a Chinese type piece of silver for her. Fantastic workmanship.

Which brings me to my point. Engraving and chasing were skills that had to be learned. The only way one could learn was by doing. So, apprentices were set to engraving older plain items as a way of teaching them the craft. Which is why we have so many one of kind, fantasticly done items.

IP: Logged

rian

Posts: 169
Registered: Jan 2006

iconnumber posted 11-28-2008 07:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rian     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kimo, your citrus spoon is very much like the Leaf pattern listed by both Hagan and Turner for 1891 Gorham(tho' I didn't see it in Carpenter's appendix) so obviously there was a continuing market for the twisted handle after all.

IP: Logged

nautilusjv

Posts: 249
Registered: Nov 2008

iconnumber posted 11-29-2008 12:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nautilusjv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you for all your replies especially the information about engraving. I am still wondering if anyone has a notion of date with the Seymour spoon or does the post on engraving by Dale but the whole notion of date into question: a piece manufactured at one date and engraved at another perhaps later date. Although I would think the earlier posting of another piece with the Seymour motif by Vathek could indicate not a full line, but more pieces in this manner. Like Rian, I noticed in Hagan several Gorham patterns with twisted handles in the 1880's and 2 patterns in the 1890's.

In the meantime, here are 2 more engraved spoons in my collection by William Wilson. The first is a small fruit spoon or maybe a sugar; I'm not sure. It has a shaped gilt bowl. The second is a teaspoon.



IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 11-29-2008 01:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is a lot of evidence for later engraving. I once handled a Georgian stuffing spoon that had been given as a bowling trophy in 1945. During the two major wars, silver was not produced. So, to give out trophies, older items were pressed into service. There are colonial silver items that were engraved for 1940's Dance Contests. Always check out the trophies when hunting, amazing what you can find. Also check the lamps: people keep making tea urns into lamps. Nothing equals lamps for weirdness.

Once visited a jewelry school. They had a barrel of old silver used in training engravers. And the pieces shown here have the added feature of requiring a great many skills.

IP: Logged

Kimo

Posts: 1597
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 11-29-2008 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rian:
Kimo, your citrus spoon is very much like the Leaf pattern listed by both Hagan and Turner for 1891 Gorham(tho' I didn't see it in Carpenter's appendix) so obviously there was a continuing market for the twisted handle after all.

Thanks Rian. I agree that it resembles the Gorham Leaf pattern of 1891, but in addition to the twisted stem my spoon seems to have greater detail and refinement. The marking on my spoon (925/STERLING/1000) is one used by Fessenden & Co. of Providence, RI and the approximate dating of this spoon seems to be third quarter of the 19th century, or so. From the finer look of my spoon and its apparent earlier dating than the Gorham Leaf pattern I've wondered whether Gorham might have used this earlier Fessenden design as a basis for their Leaf pattern - simplifying it a bit to make it work with their larger scale production techniques?

[This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 11-29-2008).]

IP: Logged

vathek

Posts: 962
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 12-05-2008 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I decided to post a pic showing my spoon handle along side of nautilusjv's fork handle. There are some differences certainly, but those may have to do with the length of the handle end on either piece. Seymour did make several engraved patterns and I think there is some evidence for these being part of a pattern set.

IP: Logged

nautilusjv

Posts: 249
Registered: Nov 2008

iconnumber posted 12-05-2008 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nautilusjv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks vathek for posting your spoon side by side with my fork. There is definite similarity and I hope it indicates a wider pattern. The engraving on the bowl of your spoon is quite beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices