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Author Topic:   Would you know how old these are?
outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 12-25-2005 02:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[01-2367]

I was setting the table to get ready for Christmas and put out my favorite candlesticks. I have no idea how old they are. I did a search on line and couldn't come up with anything. I am sure they are 20th century, but are they 1920/30 or 1960? I know they are older then 1970 at least. Is Wedgwood the pattern name?



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Dale

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Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 12-25-2005 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi outwest. Yes the pattern is International Silver's Wedgwood which came out in the early 1920's. These are part of a full line sterling flatware set. The flatware is very ornate and stands up well to use. Most matching services carry it.

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outwest

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iconnumber posted 12-25-2005 01:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you. smile
I think they were my Great Grandma's. I just didn't know if they were as old as the 20's or if they were my Grandmother's in the 40's. Needless to say, the people who would know for sure are gone. There is a matching candy dish on a stand that I need to have that silversmith straighten out for me.

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Dale

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iconnumber posted 12-25-2005 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dating these is very difficult. Wedgwood came out in the early 1920's and was made into the late 40's or early 50's. It remained on special order as long as IS was in business. IS seems to have operated on a 25 year cycle for their sterling patterns. That way a pattern could be started before a wedding with the possibility of adding on at the silver anniversary. So, it is very possible that this is from the 1940's. My impression has been that the Wedgwood holloware was popular by itself; I have seen it in places without the flatware. It does coordinate nicely with neo-classical china. like Wedgwood's Queensware.

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Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 12-25-2005 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi all,

Good Adams style holloware is always in fashion. And the Wedgewood pattern is that.

Carlaz may be able to help with the decade of manufacture.

Marc

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Richard Kurtzman
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Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 12-26-2005 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe that these are from the later half of the 1920s to the 1930s.

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outwest

Posts: 390
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iconnumber posted 12-26-2005 09:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you, again. My gut says they are from the 20's sometime, but guts lie some. That's why I thought someone might have an idea due to the numbers N22 or the style of the letters in the markings. It's just fun to try to pinpoint how long things have been around. Then I can write it down for anyone who might be interested later on.

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Dale

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iconnumber posted 12-26-2005 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would argue that these can not be dated to anything other than the life of the pattern, which was very long, probably until the end of International Silver. For all I know, Wedgwood may be a special order pattern with Wallace.

The reason I say this comes from observing IS practices with their silverplate lines. In the late 1960's, for no clear reason, IS reissued the demitasse spoons in Vintage Grape, which had been one of the best selling silverplate patterns of all time. These spoons were made from the original die and bear the circa 1904 mark of the company, with an added, separately stamped IS. There is nothing other than IS to differentiate the spoons from the original production.

After WW2, IS offered to make up pieces in most of its 20th century silverplate patterns. This appeared to have been a special order situation. People paid in advance. When IS had enough orders to produce a run, they did so. I have handled a number of sets that were expanded at this time. Again, the marks do not vary. The 1949 production bears the exact same 1847 Rogers as the originals did. And these can vary from pattern to pattern. The only real clue is the usual postwar crapola plating.

So, this is not a question about design or style. It seems to me to be about business practices. From what I know about IS, it seems the company did not use marks so that we could date pieces. Which was really inconsiderate of them, I know.

Instead, IS marks look, to me at least, to be very consistent within patterns. Even patterns made for a long period of time retain the marks they started out with.

Further, I really can't think of a single good reason a company would put a later mark on an item. And several why they wouldn't.

Does this sound reasonable?

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Richard Kurtzman
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Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 12-27-2005 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This can get a little complicated because International was made up of different divisions (and different factories) each of which had their own marking systems.

What I can say for certain, based on International Catalogs in my possession, is that up until at least October 1930, candlesticks with an N prefix had two digit numbers and as early as October 1953 virtually all candlesticks with an N prefix had three digit numbers. There is no Wedgwood N22 pictured in the 1953 Catalog. The 10" sticks pictured are marked N290 and stylistically they are slightly different from N22.

Also, the individual factories did not start adding the International Sterling mark to their own marks on hollowware until either 1926 or 1928. (The source for that information, and actual year date, is somewhere in my library and I will try to track it down.)

[This message has been edited by Richard Kurtzman (edited 12-27-2005).]

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Dale

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Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 12-27-2005 07:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Richard for this enlightening information. Do you know what the N refers to? In other words, is there any information regarding IS's assigning of numbers that comes from actual IS records?

This really looks like reading entrails or tea leaves. We have a series of numbers that can be connected to things sold in certain catalogs we can date. This gives some sort of time frame to the various candlesticks. Could this indicate a period when a new die replaced one that had worn out? Of does it indicate the introduction of a newer version for novelties sake?

Not a clue. Are the numbers for Wedgwood holloware in a sequence or all over the place?

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 12-27-2005 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That isn't the Simpson Knight in front of sterling. It looks like some smushy thing, even in a loop. It isn't that Indian Head either. I have read that those little marks can help date IS, too because they bought out so many other companies.

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Ulysses Dietz
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Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-28-2005 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dating designs and patterns that have long lives is a very tricky thing. Curatorially you date an object by design, then by production date. From my perspective, Wedgwood is a pattern that could only have been introduced between, say, 1910 and 1930; although like its ceramic namesake, I'd imagine it could have sold as long as there were customers. For a curator, often, having something from the beginning of its design existence is important, and that depends largely on documentation, unless you have a firm that offers convenient date marks somehow. "Wedgwood" represents a very important phenomenon in American silver design, which is conservatism and nostalgia. Lenox China had a porcelain pattern of exactly the same time (1920s)called "The Colonial" which coordinates beautifully with International's "Wedgwood."

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Richard Kurtzman
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iconnumber posted 12-29-2005 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
outwest, It may be "smushy" but it is the Simpson Hall Miller symbol. That was the only division that produced this design.

Dale, Every category has a different prefix letter or in some cases two letters. For example, bon bon dishes have a B, bowls a D etc. There may be some patterns but then it looks as if there are some exceptions to the patterns. Generally, the higher the number the later the piece. Maybe someday I'll sit down and try to figure it out. This though is not that time.

[This message has been edited by Richard Kurtzman (edited 12-29-2005).]

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