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Author Topic:   Mystery Mark- feathers/crown/lion
Oliviajones

Posts: 9
Registered: Mar 2011

iconnumber posted 03-05-2011 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Oliviajones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[26-2128]

I am trying to identify family silver. This one has me stumped. Assume this piece is silverplate.

Here's a detail of lovely work.

Cannot identify this mark anywhere.

This is my first post. I am having so much fun learning about these pieces. I would love to know how you go about your search as well as who made this, when, etc.

Thanks.

Olivia

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agleopar

Posts: 847
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 03-06-2011 08:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Olivia,

You have posted very fine images! Congratulations. It makes it really easy to identify your lovely salver and only leaves folks here wondering about why you want to know... it is very discouraging for the members to identify objects just to see them end up on the big auction site... so a little more info would relax all here. Thanks.

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Oliviajones

Posts: 9
Registered: Mar 2011

iconnumber posted 03-06-2011 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Oliviajones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the nice words on my posting. I am taking photos of my silver and the marks for an insurance inventory. At least that's how it started.

When I started looking up the marks,it was interesting and fun. With reference to my motives, you need to know that my husband says I have one half of the free economic system down: I BUY.

This is most assuredly not research for sales. I just have a lot of really nice "stuff" that I would like to learn more about.

Also, I am trying to convince our children that silver is a joy (not a burden), and information about these objects makes them more interesting to them. I am in awe of the craftmanship in many of these pieces, and think I honor the makers as well by knowing more about them.

Hope this answers your question.

Thanks.
olivia

[This message has been edited by Oliviajones (edited 03-06-2011).]

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bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 03-06-2011 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This information is for the top three symbols portion of your mark and is from them the U S Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO):

(REGISTRANT) E. G. WEBSTER & SON COMPOSED OF FREDERICK H. WEBSTER AND HAWLEY T. WEBSTER COPARTNERSHIP NEW YORK NO. 622 ATLANTIC AVENUE BROOKLYN NEW YORK

FIRST USE: 18920000

FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18920000

Please pardon the caps. The information was copied and pasted directly from the USPTO website.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 03-06-2011).]

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Oliviajones

Posts: 9
Registered: Mar 2011

iconnumber posted 03-06-2011 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Oliviajones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW! That's great to know. Is it impolite to ask how you were able to look it up, or where you found the informastion? I want to learn how to do research in this area. Thank you so much. Olivia

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bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 03-06-2011 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You are welcome. The information came from uspto.gov. I've been playing with the site for a while now, and I use shortcuts and work around methods to navigate the site, so I can manage to look up trademarks fairly well, but not exactly the way a professional would probably go about it.

Their site was completely overwhelming for me at the start, so if Scott wants to pass on my e-mail address to you, I'll be happy to try to coach you some on the use of the site if you think you'll need it.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 03-06-2011).]

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Oliviajones

Posts: 9
Registered: Mar 2011

iconnumber posted 03-08-2011 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Oliviajones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I found it! went to uspto.com, searched for feather, heraldic lion, and crown closed at the top. What fun!

My attempt to id another unknown was less fruitful. I will post that unknown in a few days. don't want to be greedy with the forum. Meanwhile, do you know of a list of research sites that are good? I seem to leep bumping into new ones that could have been very helpful....

Great Forum. Thanks so much.

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denimrs

Posts: 102
Registered: Dec 2005

iconnumber posted 03-08-2011 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for denimrs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oliviajones:
Meanwhile, do you know of a list of research sites that are good? I seem to leep bumping into new ones that could have been very helpful....

Great Forum.

Thanks so much.


Olivia,

Do you have Dorthothy Rainwater's book? The Encyclopdia of American Silver Manufacturers? If not, get it. It has so much good information. I went through it front to back looking for your mark and just did not find it. However, once E.G. Webster was identified as the maker I looked again found the mark exactly as on your piece, both top and bottom.

FYI, I have an almost identical piece, which I now know is a salver. It too is silver plate and made by Sheffield Silver of Brooklyn, NY. That must have been a very popular design. I know that I love the one I have.

Welcome to the Forum and don't hold back with your inquiries.

Elizabeth

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bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 03-08-2011 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think you did very well finding the one mark so easily on the USPTO site. Something to bear in mind with the USPTO records is that there are relatively very few trademarks that were registered in the nineteenth century.

Registering trademarks with the USPTO didn't really get into full swing until about the 1940's. There are probably many reasons for this. One is the expense and another is common law. I'm not a law expert, so I won't try to explain how common law applied. I just know that it was and maybe still is a factor.

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-08-2011 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are several web sites that have a history of the U.S. Trademark laws. One of the more interesting sites also has information about misuse of trademarks in today’s commerce. This misuse is comparable to that referred to in the patent field as patent trolling.

I think the increase in registrations of trademarks was simply a result of the great increase in interstate commerce after WWII and the beginning of mass marketing.

I think that the Fourth Edition of the “Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers” authored by Dorothy Rainwater and Judy Redfield has more information that the Fifth Edition. The later edition seems to have left out the information contributed by Judy Redfield as she is no longer listed as an author.

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Oliviajones

Posts: 9
Registered: Mar 2011

iconnumber posted 03-10-2011 09:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Oliviajones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Rainwater book just arrived in the mail. I bought the 5th ed, thinking it would be more advanced. Should I also buy the 4th ed? Also, what web sites do you use to research marks? Thanks. Olivia

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-11-2011 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Starting a Library on Silver and Silver Library –Alphabetical by Author are two good starting points for building a library.

World Catalog is a good website for finding a library close to you that has a copy of any book that you may be interested in seeing before you buy it.

The Rainwater and Redfield edition is available in quite a few libraries. Change the zip code for results in your area.

I would enjoy the 5th edition, look for a copy of the 4th edition and see if you want both editions.

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Oliviajones

Posts: 9
Registered: Mar 2011

iconnumber posted 03-17-2011 08:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Oliviajones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the good advice. I now have both 4th and 5th edition of the Encyclopedia. It turned out that the answer to a question I have posted elsewhere was in the 4th, but not in the 5th. Is there any reason to doubt the info that was dropped from the 5th? Also, what online resource do you use? Thanks. Olivia

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-17-2011 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The American Silversmiths and Related Craftsmen website created by WEV is a great resource.

For silver after 1840 the book I really enjoy is “Silver in America -1840-1940- a Century of Splendor” by Charles Venable. This book is out of print, but comes up on the used book market. I think that it is in many public libraries - it is nice to occasionally leave the internet and go to a library as they really are great places.

I do not know what happened with the Redfield material when the 5th edition was published; however as with many things it most likely had something to do with money.

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ElfKat

Posts: 33
Registered: Apr 2011

iconnumber posted 04-10-2011 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElfKat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I own three editions of Rainwater's marks books and I find that what's in and what's out of the various editions makes very little sense. I'd advise owning the 3rd, 4th and 5th editions if you really want to be able to find American marks.

These are the most complete references for American (and some Canadian) marks from the 1800's through the present. The Koval's book on marks has some, but by no means all, of the marks from Rainwater's books - they concentrate on earlier American marks.

Several website (do a Google search for American silver marks and I'll try to get a list of these websites up soon) do a good job of showing American marks from the 1890's on...

Kathleen

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