SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
A Curator's Viewpoint Forum
How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  A Curator's Viewpoint
tline3open  Talk to me, people.

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Talk to me, people.
Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-16-2010 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let's see if you guys can tell me what these might be. Then I'll tell you if you don't guess. I just want gut reactions.

IP: Logged

Hose_dk

Posts: 396
Registered: May 2008

iconnumber posted 12-16-2010 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hose_dk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have no idea.

That is I have one - they are American. Continental Europe does not bring such candles to light smile

And they are after 1900.

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11202
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-16-2010 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Menorah

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-16-2010 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
or Majorah, in this case. . .

IP: Logged

Paul Lemieux

Posts: 1755
Registered: Apr 2000

iconnumber posted 12-16-2010 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Lemieux     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Candlesticks and candelabra?

The silver looks like some Tiffany work I have seen.

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 824
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 12-17-2010 07:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Out on a limb here - English 1770's?

(Can we straighten the stick on the lower right, its leaning to the left a little?)

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-17-2010 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You guys are good. Majorah, indeed. These are part of a huge "George III" dinner service of over 200 pieces that was shown by Tiffany & Co., designed by Paulding Farnham, at the Paris Exposition Universelle in 1900. They were then shown at the Pan American Exposition in Buffalo in 1901.

I have contracted to buy these, along with three matching centerpiece bowls, which were not shown in the expositions. They are being deaccessioned by an institution, and I am essentially rescuing them from auction--because they were not only made in Tiffany's Newark factory, but they were originally purchased by Newark varnish magnate Franklin Murphy--who was one of the Newark Museum's founding trustees. Weirdly, in a second issue of the Jeweler's Circular in June 1900, the same service was referred to as "Italian, 15th century," which makes no sense. "My" two candelabra were one of two pairs of large Georgianesque candelabra designed by Farnham and shown in Paris. By the way, the candelabra are 28"H.

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 824
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 12-17-2010 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back when time meant so little to the cost - the labor/skill in these is stunning let alone a design that knocks your socks off. Great buy!

IP: Logged

Marc

Posts: 414
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 12-18-2010 12:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there,

Wow.. really neat. And they are all there.

I have not read past the original post, and I think they are cast and are mid 18th c. Country of origin ? not the USA as they are to fru-fru, unless they are Tiffany made for one of the large exhibitions, which may make them later in the 19th century. I would think France or the UK.

I would like a higher definition photo, or a close up of one if you can do it.

Thanks as always.

Marc

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2022
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 12-18-2010 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
They remind me of the interesting English epergnes of the 1770s with the open silver baskets and lots of applied decoration.

If only you had access to a good silver conservator to straighten the one stick on the right.

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-20-2010 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, I have access to Ubaldo Vitali, one of the best silver conservators in the world...but that's for next year, if we have the money. Our budget allotment is being slashed by 50% by the City of Newark so I suspect that conservation may not happen next year...we'll see.

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-20-2010 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The fact that Marc saw them as European and even 18th century is very interesting. This is right at the heart of the Beaux Arts movement in America, and Paulding Farnham would have studied English and French silver. It is telling that Tiffany caught up to the great 18th-century silversmiths at the turn of the 20th century. If only Tiffany & Co. had produced art nouveau silver of a caliber of Gorham's martele--they surely had the skills!

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 824
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 12-20-2010 07:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would love to know the politics in the company because it seems to me that Tiffany and Gorham ran neck and neck up until the Martele period and it is as though Tiffany was by then too stuffy and focused on a conservative NYC crowd. Perhaps with influence from Stanford White and so never went that route?

Still how amazing to be a Moore or Farnham and knock out those designs and have the factory with all those skills in it make these appear in (my guess) about 3 months.

Even more amazing that Gorham unleashed its chasers and yet created a wonderfully diverse but cohesive world of Martele! To me one of the most progressive uses of pure talent in a factory by management.

I agree that Tiffany also had the raw talent in the work force and not only caught up to but surpassed 18c London smiths with some of their more ambitious projects and experiments.

Please keep the "Talk to me" images coming when you have the time and your not too depressed about museum life in the 21st C.

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-21-2010 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't actually have possession of the silver yet--it is still at Christie's, and will get to us sometime early in the new year---I'll make sure to get photos of details and we can discuss the manufacturing techniques...even if it's only my iffy photography, since I'm not sure we can afford photography (Note: our acquisition funds are sequestered and secure, and can only be used to buy things--so even if we had to fire all the staff and shut the museum down, we'd still have money to buy things. Isn't the non-profit world peculiar?).

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 824
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 12-21-2010 08:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If only we all had sequestered acquisition funds!

Thank you, it will be fun to see them in detail, until then Happy Holidays.

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11202
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-22-2010 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
If only Tiffany & Co. had produced art nouveau silver of a caliber of Gorham's martele--they surely had the skills!

JCK - March 16, 1898

    The Genius of American Silversmiths

In the "gold room" of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, will soon be placed what may be said to be one of the most artistic silver sets ever produced by the hands of an American silversmith. The set which is illustrated on this page was presented to the museum on Feb. 21, but has not yet been put on exhibition to the public. The donor’s name is kept a secret, the articles being presented to the museum through Tiffany & Co., the makers.

Each article in the set was wrought by hand from one piece of silver, which when hammered into form and design, was gilded and etched throughout the inside. The decoration has as its motif a study after the Chinese peony, and is done in dull colors in champlevé enamel. Each cloisonne contains from two to four different colors of enamel - red, blue, white or yellow. The set was made a few years ago and was intended solely for exhibition purposes. lt was sold by Tiffany & Co. to the party who has presented it to the museum, and it was agreed by the makers that the set was never to be duplicated. This set is an expression of all the crafts that enter into the silversmith’s art in its highest form.


IP: Logged

dragonflywink

Posts: 953
Registered: Dec 2002

iconnumber posted 12-22-2010 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dragonflywink     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread has reminded me of a British article on an 1893 paper on "American Silverwork", read to the Society of Arts, with included comments by listening members. Fascinating stuff, with several references to Tiffany. Bit lengthy, so I'll post it separately in the Ephemera & Documentation forum.

~Cheryl

IP: Logged

Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11202
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 12-22-2010 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

IP: Logged

wev
Moderator

Posts: 4046
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-22-2010 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Grim, but that's just me.

IP: Logged

Dale

Posts: 2132
Registered: Nov 2002

iconnumber posted 12-31-2010 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dale     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What I see is two candelabra for a center of a large table and four candlesticks, one for each corner. Lovely set.

IP: Logged

ahwt

Posts: 2022
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 01-05-2011 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lot 95 in Sotheby's 27 Jan 2011 auction is another pair of the candelabra. I wonder how many of these were produced by Tiffany.

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-11-2011 07:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw those two candelabra in the Sotheby's sale--makes me wonder at the phenomenon that things seem to surface in groups--all this stuff from Paris 1900 by Tiffany after nothing at all for many years. The Sotheby's examples were made after 1902, and are nine-light rather than seven--but pretty much the same formula.

The silver we are acquiring comes with three en-suite centerpiece bowls that were made in 1901-1902...so clearly Farnham kept making more pieces in this style, and Tiffany must have kept a major display of it in the store--I'm sure Newark's founding trustee purchased them in NY at the store...most of this stuff seems to have been sold piecemeal. Farnham kept creating the Renaissance style pieces (that match his 1905 flatware pattern)for years, too. At least during this sparkling moment of the gilded age, this stuff must have sold pretty well...

IP: Logged

Polly

Posts: 1843
Registered: Nov 2004

iconnumber posted 01-11-2011 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polly     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is this the sort of thing people would buy for their own tables, or would it be for gifts?

IP: Logged

Ulysses Dietz
Moderator

Posts: 1265
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-11-2011 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh, both, surely. People bought their own decorations, but wedding gifts, anniversary gifts, etc. Marketing silver capitalized on all the possible reasons you might want to acquire it.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2019 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices