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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 A Curator's Viewpoint
 Mysterious mark
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| Author | Topic: Mysterious mark |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-24-2009 08:09 AM
  
As a curator I get emails all the time asking questions about silver. This past week I got an email with a massive suite of Renaissance style silver for the center of a table--candelabra, plateau with mirror, and a great cistern-like centerpiece bowl. It looked non-American to me, although I would have said Europe somewhere, 1890s-to 1900s. But, the mark was simply this: STERLING 925/1000 FINE (the numbers stacked with a line under the 925). That's all. Would any American firm make such a huge suite of silver with no more mark than this? Could it be South American? I can't post pictures because it was a dealer from abroad who sent me the query. I am just puzzled for my own sake. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 01-24-2009 09:16 AM
Hi there Ulysses, Just thinking, the wording "STERLING 925/1000 FINE" being in English, the suite was made in or for an English speaking market. If I am not mistaken, Unger Brothers marked silver this way. Let me do some looking around my collections and see if there are other pieces that are marked this way. Marc IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 01-24-2009 10:05 AM
Are special orders always signed? Also maybe it was made to be retailed through some big department store. Most So. American stuff is signed. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 01-24-2009 10:28 AM
The idea of it being Unger is too funny. This suite is massive, imperial in scale. But I agree that the marks remind me of something I've seen somewhere in these forums and cannot remember. Such marks do suggest an English-speaking market, but it's hard to know exactly what that means. All of India is English speaking. And South American silver was imported to the US. It's a puzzle to me. If the images were not from a dealer who is trying to sell them for a private client, I'd post them. Special commission is possible indeed, and I've asked the dealer to look for any other esoteric little marks (like those of Lebkeucher, e.g.) which she might not have noticed because they don't resemble anything she'd know as a European. IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 01-24-2009 10:46 AM
After the sale... please post the images. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-24-2009 11:35 AM
I have seen this mark on Kirk repousse flatware sold by Jenkins & Jenkins and their successor, Schofield Company. IP: Logged |
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Marc Posts: 414 |
posted 01-24-2009 02:31 PM
Hi again Ulysses, Have you seen the merchandise yourself, or just photos..? Just this last summer, I agreed to purchase a suite of large Martale', silver that looked fine in photos, but when I met to actually do the deal, each piece was crap. And the marks were very well done. 30 years in the silver business teaches you something. No deal. I have seen some newer (mid 20th century) silver come out of Italy with the marks you mention in the last couple of years. Big stuff, and nice, but not constructed as well as silver made 75 years earlier. Large 100 oz+ centerpieces of various sizes, and not one maker's mark among them. I made a mistake when I said English speaking countries.. It is a subset,.. the USA.. India was British during the late 19th C., so Indian marks tended to follow the British, not the upstart Americans. And I do agree with Mr Voss that Kirk or J & J would work as far as the marks go. Both used them on holloware as well as cutlery around the end of the 19th c. And they did "Imperial" sized work, to order. I have seen massive work by Kirk that did not have Kirk marks, just the marks you mentioned. Well made, substantial, and no shortcuts used in the manufacturing process. But if the seller is European, chances are, so is the silver. Buyer beware.. Always happy to confuse. Marc IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 01-24-2009 03:04 PM
In my online research, I have found a website for one Italian firm that produces silver of this type. All work is to order, the designs are mainly traditional, pictures look like very nice hand work, sterling is an option. The site is a bit vague on the marks used. They promise shipment withing 2 weeks of payment. Everything is hand made by silversmiths. This seems to be the way the sterling industry is tending. Silversmiths make silver by hand to order, no mass production. Which is as if the 19th century silver industry was a mistake. There are at least 3 companies out there that offer this. Which may be enough for world wide new sterling demand. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-26-2009 11:16 AM
Anything is possible but I am having a hard time imagining a well known company making an 'important' set such as you describe without ensuring their branding/hallmarking is prominently marked on every piece. My first thought would be that it would more likely be made in a place like India or the Near East, or perhaps Mexico or South America. Also, I would want to take a close look at it to see if it were a relatively recently made set that was trying to look like an older set since whomever made it is not giving any clue of who they are or when or where it was made by the markings. Finally, the markings themselves sound like ones I associate more commonly with 20th century objects than than typical 19th century markings. I think you would need to personally study the objects up close and with a critical eye to get a better idea of what it is. IP: Logged |
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Paul Lemieux Posts: 1792 |
posted 01-29-2009 09:26 AM
I don't know who made it and can't say where I think it is from w/o seeing a pic, but I usually only see that and similar marks on c1880s-1910s American pieces ranging from tragic little serving spoons to beautiful large sets of table, dresser, etc. implements. So I would guess your set is American. Several American makers would make fine pieces without signing them, sometimes if they were special orders, sometimes if they were being supplied to retailers who would mark it with their stamps. Probably in other instances too. I posted about an American silver/enamel jar lid with a 925/1000 mark here Durgin?. Despite the fine quality, it is not signed by maker or retailer either (but I think it is Durgin). Other companies such as Mauser, Unger, and more that I can't remember (e.g. Baltimore makers) also used variations of a 925/1000 mark. Also a set of that apparent magnitude likely would not have escaped marking laws had it been made in Europe. There is plenty of US silver overseas and vice-versa, so I don't think the present location of any item of silver really offers any clue at all to its origins. Once the sale is over, please post pictures of the set. Seeing the typeface of the mark would probably help us too. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 01-29-2009 11:36 AM
Fessenden is another company that used a variation of the 925 STERLING 1000 type markings, but I am not sure they would have made such a grand set. It is a puzzlement at this point. I agree that photos would be very helpful once the selling time is past. IP: Logged |
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allentownboy Posts: 67 |
posted 02-22-2009 02:06 AM
I thought I would throw in my two cents (and am probably in over my head here!!) and ask if anyone thought about August Jacobi's work to see if it fit the style of the piece you are describing. My understanding is that he marked this way through all his incarnations: A. Jacobi, Jacobi & Co, & Jacobi & Jenkins. I left out Jenkins & Jenkins because wev already mentioned it. Any thoughts? IP: Logged |
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