SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
American Silver before sterling Forum

A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
Past American Coin Silver Forum topics/threads worth a look
WEV's American Silversmith's Family Tree Project Smith's Index

How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  American Silver before sterling
tline3open  Jenny Lind pattern

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Jenny Lind pattern
Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-13-1999 09:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Jenny Lind pattern is generally attributed to Albert Coles, and many pieces bear his marks. However, I have seen some pieces in this pattern bearing pseudo-hallmarks that would appear to be the marks of a different manufacturer. Does anyone have any stronger evidence that someone other than Coles produced this pattern? Also, was Jenny Lind a Coles creation, or was he copying someone else? Any information would be welcome.

IP: Logged

Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 12-14-1999 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are at least 2 who made Jenny Lind, although there are some differences. William Gale made a pattern very similiar to Coles Jenny Lind. Interestingly enough, according to some, it was made a couple of years before Jenny Lind came to America. Probably not called Jenny Lind. I think, as was the case in many other coin patterns, slight modifications were made and Albert Coles patended "Jenny Lind". This is not a criticism as I think it was the norm to do this with popular patterns. I have seen at least 3 "Bead" patterns with slight modifications.
Ted Stickney

IP: Logged

Trefid

Posts: 80
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 12-19-1999 03:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trefid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have seen a JENNY LIND piece with the mark of Philo Gilbert, but I can't remember whether it was his earlier or later mark. Also on eBay just the other day there was a JENNY LIND hollow-handle knife, which the seller stated had London hallmarks for 1833! If true, this wouldn't be the first instance of American makers copying earlier British and continental patterns.

IP: Logged

Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-19-1999 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not too likely real British. British knives of the 1850's were never HH knives of a pattern. The cutler's guild was separate and you bought some generic knives of the pistol grip variety. See my posts in the Collecting place settings Forum on British Hanovarian and Kings. While the Americans did copy many British hammered patterns, I have not seen one in Pickford resembling Jenny Lind. Seems more a machine made pattern than hand hammered which was the case in England at the time.

My Jenny Lind Place setting is a real mixed bag. The following are the pattern sections of three spoons

The one on the left is a teaspoon with real Albert Coles Marks- Eagle AC head

The one in the center is a tablespoon with some clear differences, but I use it in the place setting anyway, it looks good. It has no hallmarks whatever. The one on the right is a dessert spoon which really seems to be an accurate Jenny Lind. However it has completely different marks

which looks like a Kings head on the bottom, an S, then something I can't make out and then a horses head on top.

The forks are a kick too. The bigger dinner fork is again a real Coles JL. The Smaller dessert fork is quite a bit heavier made than a normal JL and it has only a retailers mark which starts with a J. and ends in an SE with another 4-5 letters in between. There are subtle differences in the bottom of the fork.
.
Interesting topic. Just a question has anyone ever seen a JL pastry, fish or salad fork?

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 12-20-1999 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a few more random thoughts on Jenny Lind:

I think you may be on to something with Philo Gilbert, Trefid. I do believe I have seen Jenny Lind pieces with Gilbert's later mark, as illustrated in Rainwater (4th edition). Also, the marks on your dessert spoon, Bob, are suspiciously similar to Gilbert's earlier mark in Rainwater; not exact, but similar enough that there might be a connection.

I have a JL dessert spoon with only the retailer mark of Jennings & Lander, supposedly New York, NY 1846-1854.I can't tell whether it is more like Coles version or the other.

Finally, I have a partial youth set (Knife and Fork)in Coles JL, with hollow handles. The knife is marked on the blade, but the fork is unmarked. Interestingly, the hollow handles are pinched in at the sides, like Gale's version. I once had the pleasure of seeing a full cased youth set in Jenny Lind, with HH knife, fork and spoon, as well as a napkin ring. The case was original, and marked on the interior with Coles' name and address. I always regret not buying it!

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 09-24-2000 07:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi:

For what it's worth, I just saw a number of Jenny Lind pieces with the Philo Gilbert hallmarks of: Lion Passant / Crowned Head. As far as I can tell, Gilbert and Coles made almost identical patterns.

Brent

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1502
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 10-23-2000 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Trefid sends these pictures, showing the difference between the Gale pattern and the Albert Coles Jenny.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2020 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices