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tlineopen  American Silver before sterling
tline3open  Gilbert Mystery Pattern

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Author Topic:   Gilbert Mystery Pattern
Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 12-23-1999 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dear Ted:

As we have discussed before I have been trying to find information on a mystery pattern (See my Post on 1850's Mystery Pattern in the Place Settings forum). Soeffing speculated that it was made by Philo Gilbert. Trefid found a remarkable piece in your ads in Cyberattic:

Your description: American coin silver flat butter knife, Philo Gilbert
This 7" flat butter knife is in a pattern unknown to me, but believed to be made by Philo B. Gilbert of New York. It has Gilberts early mark of 4 punches as shown on page 48 of Donald Soeffings "Silver Medallion Flatware". The pattern is slightly worn and it has several small nicks on the blade. CA 1855

This is the first time I have seen this pattern with a true makers mark. All the others had only a retailers mark. Do you believe this piece definitely proves that the pattern was made by Gilbert?

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 12-24-1999 11:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bob,
I do believe this pattern was made by Philo. Of course, we don't know the name and the truth is, we really have no absolute proof. That being said, I'm confortable with the attribution. This piece, with the marks, certainly helps.
Ted

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Trefid

Posts: 80
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 01-20-2000 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trefid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just acquired a dessert spoon in this pattern with retailer's marks of "S. Hoyt & Co. 266 Pearl St." incuse in 2 rectangles. What are some of the other retailers associated with this pattern? Also, could we give it a tentative name so we don't have to call it the "mystery pattern"?

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4095
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-20-2000 11:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a large sugar or berry spoon marked incised by J. Cook, who apparently bought Gilbert's dies. Also a mustard or condiment ladel marked incuse by Moses D. Barnes of Macon, Georgia and a teaspoon unmarked, but from an old New York estate.

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Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 01-20-2000 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was very widely distributed, the retailers that I have found vary from "Jaccard St. Louis" to A. Voorhees in New Jersey, Hoard & Avery in Chicago, M.W. Galt & Bros. Wash. D.C. All these are listed in Kovels Silver Marks, without reference to whether they were retailers or makers. Galt is referred to in Rainwater as a manufacturer, as is Jaccard.

If anyone can propose a name I am game. I think we should get all the postings together of un name 1850's patterns and number them. We can call this SMPUB number 1.

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-21-2000 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Y'all come up with a name. It's very different from most patterns. I'm not that clever.
Ted

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 01-21-2000 11:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If one of you would lend us a piece with the Gilbert maker's mark for us (SMP)to photograph, we will give it an offical Book Of Silver SIN Number and include it in the next update. As it regards a name we leave that up to the majority of you to agree on something.

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-21-2000 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scott,
How about the one at the top of the page?
Ted

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Scott Martin
Forum Master

Posts: 11377
Registered: Apr 93

iconnumber posted 01-21-2000 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great! Is it yours or Bob's? After the first we will be ready to schedule borrowing it to photograph. Thanks so very much.

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-22-2000 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bob knows owner.
Ted

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Ted

Posts: 17
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 01-22-2000 09:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ted     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I apologize. I was wrong. I sold it in November and I am not sure to whom I sold it.
If I can track it down, I will let you know.
Ted

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bjb
unregistered
iconnumber posted 03-06-2000 01:05 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A while back, perhaps a year ago,
I began calling this pattern "Queen of the Sea." It's cornball, but the shell at the
end of the handle does give the
effect of being a crown, and the pattern does look feminine.

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Bob Schulhof

Posts: 194
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-13-2000 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Schulhof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Latest from ebay. The following set of six luncheon forks and knives appeared on ebay this week.



The owner describes the link between Cook and Gilbert thusly

"About J. Cook: John Cook was the foreman for William Gale & son until 1855. He then entered into partnership with Theodore Evans who had been a salesman for the same firm, together forming Theodore Evans And Co. Evans retired in 1868 at which point Cook went into business on his own. He bought the bankrupt business of Philo B. Gilbert and used their dies to make his patterns. He was in business until 1880 when George Shiebler acquired the rights to Cook's mark. This flatware probably dates from between 1868 to 1880."

The owner does not have a close up scan of the marks but reports that the knife reads
J. COOK; the fork reads, "J.C. N.Y." followed by
"J. COOK"

Another piece to the puzzle.

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4095
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 04-14-2000 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A fine looking set, Bob. I wish you luck getting them.



I managed to get some fair scans of the condiment ladle in this pattern marked by Moses D. Barnes of Macon GA. He is noted as working there as a watchmaker, silversmith and general merchant in 1840. He sold a little bit of everything apparently, including "finest gold dental foil" and silver teeth. His wife petitioned for the distribution of his estate in 1858, which is presumed to be the year of his death.

The ladle has no other markings aside from the Barnes, though I suppose we must assume it originated with Gilbert. Do you suppose he employed travelling salesmen to carry his lines to outlying retailers?

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Brad

Posts: 1
Registered: Oct 2000

iconnumber posted 10-20-2000 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have pieces marked S.P. Squire (1835) NYC
and Squire & Bros. (1845-55) ref. Kovel

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