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tline3open  I.S.W. sheath of wheat mark

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Author Topic:   I.S.W. sheath of wheat mark
labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 03-21-2003 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have an early comb(sorry no photo) with the same mark as this spoon (I got the photo off of Ebay) but without the sheath of wheat mark. Belden ascribes the mark to Joseph S. Weaver Utica Ny 1846-49. I don't pretend to be an expert on coin silver combs since mine is the only one I've ever seen except for those late unmarked ones that have soldered on tines which I presume are made after 1850. In any case I never accepted the attribution, and I don't know where this spoon was made, but it is clearly earlier than 1840. The sheath of wheat mark I believe was found in Ny City and State, but I am not sure where else. There are several I.S.W. candidates in the Phila are but they all seem too late and I don't remember ever seeing a sheath of wheat mark from there. I wish we could see the back of the spoon.

Any ideas?
Can you get this puzzlement out of my hair?

Maurice

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FredZ

Posts: 1070
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 03-21-2003 10:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Darling Foundation, in the book "New York State Silversmiths", also attribute the mark with sheaf of wheat to Joseph S. Weaver. The 1846-49 dates are years his name was found in the New York directories. That does not mean he did not work before or after those dates. I too have never seen a coin silver comb. Is there any way we could get an image?

Fred Zweig

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wev
Moderator

Posts: 4121
Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 03-21-2003 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I noted that as well, but he wasn't born until 1823. I am doing some more investigating but one thought, admittedly far-fetched, is that it is old stock -- he was the last partner of his father, Nicholas, and continued on for several years in the old shop when Nick moved to Cleveland, Ohio in 1847.

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labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 03-21-2003 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll try to post a photo of the comb on Monday. The comb to me looks 1810-20.

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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-23-2003 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a spoon marked TDD with two sheaf's of wheat. See Belden page 143 for Tunis Dubois. The wheat appears to be the same as shown in your photo. (Tunis has eight stalks radiating from the edge of his wheat and I can't tell from your photo how many are radiating from the wheat in the I.S.W. mark) The same sheaf of wheat was used by Joseph and Tunis Dubois. That of course does not identiy I.S.W. and Tunis was earlier than 1810.

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labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 03-24-2003 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a picture of the comb the mark seems very small 6.5 mm for a 3 initial mark. That would make the sheath of wheat mark a little more than 5 mm on the Ebay spoon. Perhaps AHWT could measure his sheath of wheat marks on the Dubois spoon and see if they are the same size.

I thought I would post a later comb just as an example, this is a particularly gaudy one. Normally they have a plain bright cut top, but the attached tines are similar and they don't ever seem to be marked. I guess the later ones are ca. 1850 and American.
Maurice


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ahwt

Posts: 2334
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 03-24-2003 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The punch on the Dubois spoon is 2mm plus a hair by 5 mm.

Page 112 of Marks of American Silversmiths by Robert Alan Green has your I.S.W. mark with the sheaf of wheat. That sheaf is identical, at least to my eye, as the one on my Tunis Dubois spoon. Green does not identify I.S.W. (I.S.W. no doubt is a yet to be identified southern smith.)

Patricia Kane spoke at the last Natchez antique forum and provided some examples of 18th century and early 19th century silversmiths that bought finished silver from another smith and then put their mark on it. The result was a product that had two marks from different smiths. Sometimes the marks were pseudo marks and sometimes the initials of both smiths appeared. I have one beaker, made into a temperance pitcher, that is marked A. Brasier, Ster�Ameri Man. This one was either made by Chaudron and Rasch or by Amable Brasier.

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labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 03-25-2003 12:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mon Dieu, I spent 30 minutes writing a response to your comment and hit the wrong button, and it all went away. This will be the briefer version.

I don't understand what makes the same wheat mark into a Southern piece?

I hope Pat didn't say what you think she said. There are a number of reasons for backstamping. Normally a major supplier sends silver to a minor retailer or a less industrial producer down South.

Shared marks don't mean the same producer, anymore than do shared banding, handles, etc. In other words shared marks aren't necessarily the same as backstamping.

In the case of this mark I would think there are two more likely explanations. Either the wheat mark was produced for both silversmiths by the same die cutter, or the mark went into Dubois' estate and (comme l'habitude) his maker's mark was destroyed but his wheat mark was purchased by I.S.W..

I don't know what a "temperance pitcher" is, I never stopped personally. I have never seen a Brasier piece with that mark, but I would like to do so. I think for a normal piece of holloware by Chaudron & Rasch it would be easy to tell the producer. They had a very idiosyncratic way of soldering. Could you send me or post a picture of the bottom?

Maurice

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swarter
unregistered
iconnumber posted 05-12-2003 02:36 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maurice:

An article in the Winterthur Portfolio [23(1) 1988:25-50] by Christine Laidlaw provides the answer. This particular sheaf of wheat pseudohallmark was a trademark of Teunis D. Dubois, a commercial suipplier of silver to the trade. His mark appears alone as one or two strikes, or with one or the other of the eagle head marks of his brother, Joseph, with whom he was partnered, and in combination with that of the retailer. He marked and sold his own silver, and supplied a number of prominent silversmiths in New York (eg W.G.Forbes, John Vernon and others associated with the Dutch silversmithing community to which he and his brother were linked) and elsewhere. The I.S.W. mark is illustrated with this sheaf of wheat mark, and is attributed to one of these, John Schuyler Walter.

Stuart Warter

[This message has been edited by swarter (edited 05-12-2003).]

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wev
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Registered: Apr 99

iconnumber posted 05-12-2003 10:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you very much for the information. It is worth noting that Walters was cousin to both Joseph and Tunis Dubois.

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labarbedor

Posts: 353
Registered: Jun 2002

iconnumber posted 05-13-2003 12:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for labarbedor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At first I was very sceptical, but "I think he's got it". I still have doubts about associating the sheath of wheat mark with only one family of silversmiths, but the ISW certainly seems to fit. Thanks Stuart
Now get to work on some of the other unknowns.
Maurice

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bascall

Posts: 1629
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 12-22-2008 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nicholas Weaver is listed in the 1850 U S Federal Census for Milwaukeè, Wisconsin as a silversmith. He is there with his wife Elizabeth and daughter Mary.

In 1850 it appears Joseph is a merchant in California taking advantage of the business from gold mining. In 1860 and after he is in Cleveland and is a wholesale liqour dealer. After his father's death, Joseph's mother is with him in Cleveland.

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