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tline3open  O*C on this pair of knee buckles

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Author Topic:   O*C on this pair of knee buckles
Clive E Taylor

Posts: 450
Registered: Jul 2000

iconnumber posted 11-23-2003 11:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clive E Taylor     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can anyone identify the makers mark of O*C on this pair of knee buckles please ?

Originally I believed them to be Irish but now feel are probably American - and I have no references on American silver – we do not see much of it in England !

Stylistically date is around 1745 –1760, size is 23mm by 28mm (roughly an inch square)

There is a Roman numeral VIII scratched on the backs, which I have only seen on American buckles (including one by Myers of Philadelphia), although an Arabic number (always even) is very characteristic of Irish buckles

There are two makers marks on each buckle and the remains of a diagonal mark in one corner of one buckle which could be a Lion Passant with cut corners or the extreme left hand side of a Hibernia. This is an unusual place for an assay mark but not unknown in English buckles. Only the top section of the mark survives, the rest being apparently filled in with solder. There are indications of other filled in marks – again not unknown as retailers often added their own marks to items bought in from other makers.

If English or Irish the chape is atypical and there is no known English OC although it may be a mark in the lost London smallworkers book of 1739 –58 .

Owen Cassidy of Dublin (free 1753, died 1816) seems possible. He had a dissimilar mark in 1780 recorded by Jackson on a pair of tongs and Henry Nicolson, a known bucklemaker, was one of his apprentices.


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swarter
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Posts: 2920
Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 12-01-2003 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can find no rcord of this mark in any of my American sources.

Do you know the significance of the numerals on the buckles? Are pairs of buckles similarly marked? (It looks like VIIII rather than VIII in the photo - if so, could VIIII be used here instead of IX to avoid misreading upside down?)

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clive e.taylor
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iconnumber posted 12-06-2003 03:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to be so long replying but have been in hospital - nothing terminal ! You are absolutely right, the numeral is viiii (9). Sorry for mistake. It had not dawned on me that there may be confusion with upside down items and that may well be the reason for the huge number of iiii's. A similar cavat would exist on XXXX's also . I've seen one undoubted Americam example with the numerals representing 66 !
Very many thanks for using your referances to check OC - much appreciated

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clive e.taylor
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iconnumber posted 01-25-2004 11:40 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The numerals on Irish buckles seem to directly relate to size or weight. What I have seen on the American examples also appears to follow that pattern.
To weigh a buckle today is dificult as the removal of the chape (the iron bits) is fraught with problems, the likelyhood of damage considerable. Although I often get English buckles with missing chapes, never an Irish one (Murphy's Law !) .

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clive taylor
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iconnumber posted 05-04-2004 01:37 PM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A buckle also hallmarked O C with an Irish Hibernia has been seen. Although not an identical mark, and the buckle dates stylistically to 1780 or later I now feel confident that the buckle above is Irish, perhaps for the American market.
Owen Cassidy must be prime suspect

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