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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Coin Ladle Late Colonial, Mark is unknown
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| Author | Topic: Coin Ladle Late Colonial, Mark is unknown |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 08-18-2004 01:06 AM
  
OK this one really has me stumped (Yeah so what else is new) I have had this ladle for about two years and have had no success in finding the correct attribution, not anything close... the ladle is about about 14 1/2 inches long, about 4 inches wide and has a late colonial look and feel, the silver is very soft compared to later ladles in my collection. I am including a picture of the ladle across my copy of Flynt and Fayles so you can have some scale, and a hopefully good picture of the mark... BTW there are four of theses marks in a row, and for the best of me it looks and feels like early to mid 18th century but you tell me... "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 08-18-2004 10:00 AM
The image of the mark is large and fuzzy. I cannot tell what the characters are? Are you able to tell us what letters are shown? Fred IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 08-19-2004 09:36 AM
I am having a hard time making it out as the marks were made and the handle reshaped causing the metal to distort.... The best guess I would have is what might appear to be a stylized "H" where the last vertical of the 'H" is part of a "Q" or "G" followed by a "E" with a Vertical on the right... or a B" with a Vertical on the right, or a "H" with a horizontal across the top and bottom... The mark as a whole seems to be Chattered (struck multiple time) and additional metal resembling a broken die.. (bubble gum" in some of the marks. It is clear that all four marks are the same mark, but I am just unable to read it as I am so close with my lope... I will try to draw the marks on a piece of paper and see if I can get that loaded... Thanks for the help... "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 08-20-2004 12:05 AM
Lisa took this one hope this is better.... "Smaug"
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-20-2004 11:46 AM
Tough one. Have you tried pencil rubbings? Sometimes they can be helpful by filtering out visual "noise." IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-20-2004 01:00 PM
I'm not sure it's any help, but I played with the image a bit As to who it might be, I don't have a clue. Could you send me a shot of the whole piece that I can post up? IP: Logged |
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Patrick Vyvyan Posts: 640 |
posted 08-20-2004 04:13 PM
This is just a wild guess. Could it be Chinese export or similar? It looks rather as if the mark is copying western letters without really understanding them. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-20-2004 05:57 PM
Turn wev's edited image upside down - it is almost readable - LHH? IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-20-2004 06:03 PM
 IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-21-2004 11:27 AM
This is very odd. On first glance the four punches look like those one would expect on a "duty dodger," but the characters in each punch, and the punches themselves, look too much alike to be significantly distorted or misshapen by finishing. It is as if someone wanted them to look that way. I don't know what to make of this one! IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-21-2004 11:49 AM
Exactly what I thought at first glance -- a little too much regularity in the distortion. I'm leaning toward the Chinese export possibility. IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 08-21-2004 06:12 PM
Chinese Export ??? Very Puzzleing... I did not know that chinese did this kind of work along the Colonial Forms... Are there examples of these any where on the web that I may be able to look at...? Thanks "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 08-23-2004 11:14 AM
Nothing like getting into a discussion late, I doubt it is Chinese. Usually Chinese silver either has an oriental look, or is an exact copy of western patterns. Also usually the marks are several different types (pseudo, etc) and block letters. I have never seen 4 identical marks attributed to China, and it probably doesn't make much sense, as it was usually a trick of a duty dodger (no duty due) or a colonial silversmith trying to give a look to silver when other marks weren't available. The mark isn't in the Chinese Export book, but that in itself doesn't rule it out. Indian colonial is a possibility, I have only had hollowware from there, and I don't have the book and have never had flatware. The end of the handle looks quite odd for either English or American, I think I have seen similar ends on continental pieces, which makes no sense as far as the marks go. The drop on the bowl might give a hint. If I had to guess, I would think about he possibility of a fake, how is the patina? IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 08-24-2004 12:21 AM
There are pieces from students of silversmithing which frequently have these odd sort of marks. It looks like someone was practicing marking, doing it over and over to get the right feel for it. I have had a few odds and ends like this. Usually it comes from someone who took up metalwork, got somewhat into it and dropped out. Then there are the ones designed to drive us truly crazy: the coppersmithed pieces that later got silverplated. I have run into a few of these. The work was beautiful, wonderfully shaped and repouseed. Just at a later date it was silverplated. And ended up looking like a hand made sterling piece. Copper would account for the 'soft feel' you report. There have been loads of hobby coppersmiths who were very very good craftsmen. [This message has been edited by Dale (edited 08-24-2004).] IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 08-25-2004 08:10 AM
I have a couple of other Coin Ladles from the late 18th century and this one if it is a fake or a modern one would surprise me... The feel of the metal is identical to confirmed pieces of 1760 - 1790 as is the shape, weight, texture and patina. The drop is a double, and is hand made. The handle is a short center rib with tip and with a turn down rounded end. The dimensions are : Length 15 inches This one has defied all of my attempts at attribution for two years now... A real stumper...! "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 09-03-2004 03:21 PM
The regularity of all 4 marks make me think they are not distorted - that the "writing" in them was actually made to look like that. The style of the characters gives me the impression of of the South Asian cursive writing styles, or perhaps even one of the styles of Arabic writing. I tend to go for labarbedor's thought that it might be an Indian copy of a British design, or perhaps one of the other colonial outposts copying either British or French designs in that general part of the world. I have seen a number of silver items from that part of the world with either odd alloys with silver or overly high silver contents that make them softer than sterling. IP: Logged |
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