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tline3open  Joseph Carpenter 18thC. Silversmith

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Author Topic:   Joseph Carpenter 18thC. Silversmith
Diggingdogs

Posts: 3
Registered: Dec 2004

iconnumber posted 12-01-2004 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Diggingdogs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have found a spoon that i have tentatively identified as being made by Joseph Carpenter of Norwich Ct. in the latter part of the 1700s. It has a hand hammered design around the edge of the handle but I can find no information.

It has 2 rectangular stamped marks both on the reverse side and they appear to read I.C, -I understand the letter 'I' was used instead of the letter 'j'. It measures 7 1/2 inches long and does not have a rats tail join but a rounded tongue join on the stem to the bowl. It is engraved in an oval at the top with the letters HM.

I have seen pieces by his son Charles but I can't find anything or pics of anything by him. Does anyone have any ideas.
Thanks a lot,
Diggingdogs.

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FredZ

Posts: 1069
Registered: Jun 99

iconnumber posted 12-01-2004 10:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suspect the decoration around the edge of your spoon was engraved. It will be essential to have an image to help you identify the maker. There was more than one silversmith who marked his work with IC. We would love to see it.

Fred

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wev
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iconnumber posted 12-01-2004 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As Fred says, we need to see a picture before making any judgement. In the mean time, you can go to my site for some basic information and a picture of Carpenter's mark:
Joseph Carpenter (click here)

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 10-27-2013).]

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swarter
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Registered: May 2003

iconnumber posted 12-02-2004 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We would need to see pictures of the spoon (both sides) as well as of the marks, as the style and other features would help define the time frame, which is necessary to do as there are over a dozen IC marks recorded - some very similar to one another.

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Diggingdogs

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Registered: Dec 2004

iconnumber posted 12-02-2004 09:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Diggingdogs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for all your help, I'm looking for a website to post some pics on, I 'll let you all know when I find one.

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wev
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iconnumber posted 12-02-2004 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Send then along to me and I will put them up on my site.

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wev
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iconnumber posted 12-03-2004 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is the spoon in question:

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FredZ

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iconnumber posted 12-03-2004 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great Spoon! I have as similar pair by the partnership of Joseph and Nathanial Richardson of Philadelphia. The wavy decoration was made by using and chisel like engraving tool to cut semicircular bright cuts first in one dirction and then in the other. This is symilar to the feathered edge found on some earlier spoons. The feather edge is made with the same graver but rolling the cut over the edge.

Your spoon was forged from a single bar of metal. The bowl was not soldered to the handle. That decoration was formed in a steel block known as a swage.

Wonderful bright-cut decoration typical of late 18th century American decoration. Very nice. Thanks for the images.

Fred


[This message has been edited by FredZ (edited 12-03-2004).]

I love the editing feature of this forum!

[This message has been edited by FredZ (edited 12-03-2004).]

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Brent

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iconnumber posted 12-03-2004 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sure you mean late 18th C, Fred? I was thinking that the style of the bright cutting looked very Philadelphia myself, and the habit of striking the maker's mark twice is typical of early Philadelphia work. I would look for a potential Philadelphia maker with IC or JC initials; Carpenter may not be the culprit.

Brent

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FredZ

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iconnumber posted 12-03-2004 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
18th 19th what is a 100yrs among friends? Old age will do it to you. My mind knows what I mean but my words don't always come out right.

Fred

[This message has been edited by FredZ (edited 12-03-2004).]

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FredZ

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iconnumber posted 12-03-2004 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FredZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I suspect your spoon was made by Joseph Cooke of Philadelphia working circa 1788-96. The mark does not seem to match any known mark for Carpenter. I have not seen a good image of Cooke's mark. The engraving gives me the biggest hint that it is Philadelphia work. Does anyone have an image of Cooke's mark?

Fred

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mdhavey

Posts: 164
Registered: Dec 2003

iconnumber posted 12-04-2004 12:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mdhavey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is that a heart between the J and C? There are a lot of marks listed with a J dot C, (cf. John Carman, Joseph Carpenter, James Chalmers, John Champlin, John Coburn, etc.) but haven't found one with a J heart C. John Carman also worked in Philly late 18th cent.

[This message has been edited by mdhavey (edited 12-04-2004).]

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swarter
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iconnumber posted 12-04-2004 12:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for swarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to muddy the waters further, but note that the top left of the punch is chipped away. The top of the upper strike is messed up a bit, but in the lower one there is a hint of a horizontal bar at the top - could it be T.C?

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wev
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iconnumber posted 12-04-2004 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a bit clearer

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 05:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 06:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 07:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Old Houses of
The Antient Town
of Norwich
1660 — 1800

By
Mary E. Perkins
Norwich, Conn.
1895
Page
469

quote:

CHAPTER LXVII.

The other half of lot No. 3 of the Parsonage land is leased to Joseph Carpenter, 2nd, in 1788. Joseph Carpenter, 1st, comes from Woodstock, Ct., to Norwich and marries in 1746, Elizabeth, daughter of Nathaniel and Ann (Backus) Lathrop. He died in 1749, leaving two sons, Joseph (b. 1747), and Gardner (b. 1748-9). The widow, Elizabeth, marries in 1754, Joseph Peck, who kept
the Peck tavern. As early as 1769, Joseph Carpenter, 2nd, was established in business as a goldsmith in a shop belonging to his step-father, for which he pays a yearly rent of £1 10s. This may have been one of the shops then owned by Joseph Peck, in the rear of the jail.

In 1772, Joseph Carpenter, 2nd, buys boards, &c., of Joseph Carew, and pays to James Wentworth £11 for "stoning the seller" and for the underpinning of a shop. In 1773, he pays for "stepstones" and shingle nails, and buys of John Danforth eight scaffold poles, so we may assume that about this time he builds the shop now owned by his grandson, Joseph Carpenter, 3rd. In 1774, and for some years after, he pays rent to Rev. Benjamin Lord for land "my shop stands on." After the parsonage lands are ceded to the church, he receives in 1787 a 999 years' lease of this land, then known as lot No. 4 (frontage 4 rods, 9 links). It is said that he occupied one side of this shop, while his brother, Gardner, carried on a mercantile business in the other part. The building has never been altered, and retains to this day its gambrel roof and old-fashioned shutters, and all the features of a shop of the olden time. Joseph's stock in trade consisted of gold necklaces and beads, stone earrings and rings, teaspoons, smelling bottles, "speck - tacals" or "specticls," "stone nubs,"bonnet pins, "tortashell" buttons, "brass holberds," "cristols," "nee buckles," stock buckles, clocks, watches, &c. He also advertises in January, 1776, that he has for sale engravings of "four different views of the Battles of Lexington, Concord, &c., copied from original Paintings taken on the Spot." The price is 6 shillings per set for the plain engravings, and 8 shillings for the colored ones.

In 1775. Joseph Carpenter married Eunice Fitch, and had six children. From 1777 to 1778, he leases a house of Seth Miner. From 1779 to 1782, he occupies a house belonging to Joseph Peck. These buildings we are unable to locate exactly. In or before 1788, the church lease to him the north half of lot No. 3, and here, next to his shop, he builds the house now owned by his great-grandson, Joseph Carpenter, 3rd. About 1790-1, he builds the house near the Chelsea Parade, which has been recently sold to Mrs. Gardiner of New London. His death occurred in 1804.

Gerard Carpenter (b. 1779), son of Joseph, married in 1819, Rebecca E. Hunter, and lived in this house on the Green, till his death in 1861. He served as Lieut. Colonel in the war of 1812.

Approached by a lane, between the shop of Joseph Carpenter and the schoolhouse, there stood high up on the hillside, a house (now disappeared) which was at one time occupied by Seth Miner. All the land lying back from the street, comprising lots Nos. 7, 8, 9, 10, 16 and part of No. 14, were leased to him by the First Church Society, the earliest deeds dated 1787 and 1789, but Seth Miner may have resided here at a much earlier date, possibly at the time of the
Revolution. .....


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asheland

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Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great post Scott!

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks.

Did you notice the building's door locations are different in 1895?

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see that now. That's odd. It must have been remodeled.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 07-01-2016 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
2015:


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asheland

Posts: 911
Registered: Nov 2003

iconnumber posted 08-03-2019 08:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Small world. biggrin I bought this very spoon today!

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wev
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iconnumber posted 08-03-2019 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Took it long enough to find you.

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 08-03-2019).]

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 08-03-2019 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Indeed so! smile

WEV, do you believe this to be Joseph Cooke? There isn't a mark shown in Hollan's book on Philadelphia...

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asheland

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iconnumber posted 08-05-2019 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for asheland     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll make a new thread with pictures...

Joseph Cooke, Philadelphia? New spoon, c.1790

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 08-05-2019).]

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