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"MA" Countermark

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Author	Topic: "MA" Countermark
florida_bob Posts: 54 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 01-03-2005 11:09 PM The images below show a countermark that has stumped researchers so far. The mark was previously thought to read "VII" but as you can see, the careful placement of the mark on the head of the bust of Liberty implies that it should be read as "MA". I have seen two other examples of this countermark, and both were stamped in the same position. The coins are early (1800 and 1802) U.S. Large Cents. The two other coins that I have seen this countermark on were the same type. Has anyone seen this mark on a piece of silverware ??? There are one or two other silversmith marks that have the same shape, but I haven't been able to attribute these initials. Bob M. IP: Logged
labarbedor Posts: 353 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 01-04-2005 03:53 PM I was waiting for someone else to weigh in. To me it seems too big to be a silversmith's mark. Although very occasionally one finds a very large mark, they are quite uncommon. The other problem is that it seems very crudely cut. I would presume therefore it was made by the member of another trade. IP: Logged
t-man-nc Posts: 327 Registered: Mar 2000	posted 01-04-2005 04:53 PM I have to agree with Maurice, I copied this mark into MS Paint and flipped it 180' to see the “IIV” version and even flipped inverse “A M”, (I found that looking at it from a different perspective offer insights not normally seen) there seems to be some other marks in the field behind the “MA” or “IIV”. Additionally the cartouche is uneven in shape, with "serration" on one side that is very uneven... Generally a very poor example of a makers mark from my limited experience. I would believe that any silversmith that wanted the public to see good examples of their work would not have used this mark. "Smaug" IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 01-04-2005 06:55 PM I am not convinced with the attribution of the letters AM. Having made stamps It would have been a simple job to have made the horizontal line for the A. The rest of the body of the letters seem clear exept for this supposed horizontal line and the diagonal lines on the M. The back noise on the stamp also bothers me. I suspect it is not the mark of a silversmith and the mark of another type of craftsman. I am not sure if there were any items marked with the roman numeral 7... (Just the observations of a craftsman)... Fred IP: Logged
labarbedor Posts: 353 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 01-04-2005 09:32 PM I think that is the value of the Forums. Fredz points out something that passed me by. The background is really noise. That crossbar, etc are certainly the result of chance. Whatever the mark is, it isn't the initials of a silversmith. Fredz, don't be so self deprecating, here we are all just commenting on craftmen's accomplishments. Those who cannot do, critique. IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 01-04-2005 11:52 PM We would like to think that all craftsmen were equally sharp-eyed and meticulous in everything they did. English punches were uniformly well finished; not so American -- some were and some were not. Where professional die makers were not available, some pretty crude punches were made and used - I like to call them "frontier punches," even though all were not made outside of major population centers. I really think it is possible to overanalyze this -- Occam's Razor could well apply. It seems evident that whatever scrap metal was used for this punch, the maker did not bother to finish the surface. Beyond that, the proper way to view the mark is as in the two small pictures, just as it would be seen with the naked eye. Whether the maker lacked proper tools, was young and inexperienced or old, shakey, and weak-sighted is immaterial -- it was never intended to be viewed with magnification, and to the naked eye it looks like "MA", so if it looks like a duck . . . . I vote for "MA." --------------------------- Steel was in short supply in the Early Republic. In the Colonial period, the Crown had not allowed steel to be produced or imported due to the same protectionism that impeded the use of Sterling, so a steel industry was slow to develop after the Revolution. As in the Colonies, early post-Revolution silversmiths still had to rely on steel salvaged from imported sword blades (the hardest readily available) and other such manufactured items for the metal for their tools and punches, just as they still had to rely on melted coins for their silver. IP: Logged
florida_bob Posts: 54 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 01-05-2005 08:18 PM Thanks for everyone's input. I have seen cruder maker's marks than this one applied to silverware. However, I agree that it may be from a different type of craftsman. I will continue "the hunt" to find an item stamped with this mark. Bob M. IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-09-2005 06:27 PM Another makers perspective, that the MA or VII would be cut into the surface of the punch and the other marks were already there (unlikely) or were scratched on by abuse, wear, or to disfigure. The very sharp serations underneath the MA would have to be made by an extremely sharp tool (knife edge graver). A thought was an apprentice practice piece? When only right was acceptable, this might not have made the grade. The coins were the test pieces when sheet metal was valuable...? IP: Logged
florida_bob Posts: 54 Registered: Dec 2004	posted 01-09-2005 10:40 PM Thanks for the input. However, the evidence leads me to believe that the countermarks are purposeful, and not test strikes. Several countermarks were stamped, all on the same type of coin, all in the same place on the coin, and all in the same orientation. Also, the mark is exactly the same on each coin - there is no progression as if the craftsman was cutting more of the mark and then testing it again. Bob M. [This message has been edited by florida_bob (edited 01-09-2005).] IP: Logged
agleopar Posts: 850 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 01-10-2005 07:01 PM Bob, your right and as Swarter might say I have cut myself on the razor... One thing, a good engraver friend thought that it looks more appropriate as a VII,from her perspective, graphically speaking. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 01-10-2005 08:24 PM Here, for what it's worth, is a little experiment. I traced out the 'background noise' -- mapping all the curved lines and line segments that I could match up visually, cutting them off where they hit the major strokes. I then painted them out by sampling in the background. IP: Logged

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