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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 O. P. Q. & Co / BROOKLYN
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| Author | Topic: O. P. Q. & Co / BROOKLYN |
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florida_bob Posts: 54 |
posted 01-26-2005 05:30 PM
  
Coin silver experts: Here are two images of a countermark found on some early U.S. coins. The first mark is "O.P.Q. & Co", and the second mark is "BROOKLYN". Has anyone seen these marks on a piece of coin silver? They appear to be silversmith marks, but the only "O.P.Q." I have found in Brooklyn, New York was "Orestes P. Quintard" who was the Secretary of the "New York and Brooklyn Bridge" (today it is called the Brooklyn Bridge). Bob M. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-26-2005 06:25 PM
Orestes Penthilus Quintard, b. 10 Apr 1818 in Norwalk CT, d. 2 Mar 1885, Brooklyn NY, was the great grandson of the silversmith Peter Quintard and the 2nd cousin of the watchmakers and jewelers Charles Augustus and William Martin Quintard. Aside from his involvement in the Brooklyn Bridge, I don't find anything concrete about his work career. He may have been associated with the Quintard Iron Works, which supplied iron for the bridge. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-26-2005 08:33 PM
Pretty cool that the coin is from Orestes's own birth year! Just coincidence, or are there other examples of this? I seem to recall a 1799 silver dollar with Garrett Eoff's mark, which the seller connected - somewhat dubiously, it seemed to me at the time - to the fact that Eoff became free in that year. But just maybe there was something to it. IP: Logged |
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florida_bob Posts: 54 |
posted 01-27-2005 09:13 PM
Thanks for the replies. So it looks like there could be a Quintard silversmith connection. There are other examples of this countermark on coins with different dates. I also own the "G.EOFF" countermark on a 1799 Bust Dollar, but I don't have an image handy. Bob M. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-27-2005 09:28 PM
I wouldn't put too much store in the dealer's story; I have never seen any freeman record for Eoff and 1799 would probably be too early, anyway. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-27-2005 09:34 PM
I'm curious why you say "They appear to be silversmith marks." There is certainly no reason to confine a punch mark to that trade, though we do (at least here) make the immediate association. Such punches could be ordered up by anyone in any trade -- Bruce Type Foundry, to name one, offered such strike cutting services very early on. IP: Logged |
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florida_bob Posts: 54 |
posted 01-29-2005 11:51 AM
[I'm curious why you say "They appear to be silversmith marks."] The answer to this requires a bit of background into my research. My core interest lies in the study of the maker's and retailer's marks (or touchmarks) that were used in 18th and 19th century North America. I have studied the marks used by all kinds of tradesmen, including silversmiths, jewelers, watch and clock makers, tool makers, coppersmiths, pewterers, and other metalsmiths, gunsmiths, machinists, button makers, blacksmiths, etc. I also study the marks used by retailers, hotels, restaurants, and other types of merchants and commercial establishments. So, my collecting of coin silverware and countermarked coins is a "branch" of this interest. I also have a collection of antique tools, as well as other types of antique items, but I only collect an antique when the maker or retailer is known to have countermarked coins. After having examined the marks on probably 20,000+ antique items, I can say that very few types of merchants used the small "raised letters within a rectangular depression" type of mark other than silversmiths and jewelers. The other metalsmiths, such as pewterers, coppersmiths, etc, used different styles of marks. The marks they used also tended to be larger in size. Some hotels and restaurants used silversmith-like marks to stamp their silverware and other utensils, which were valuable items that they did not want to "wander off". I call this type of mark an "owner's mark", or "property mark". I would be very interested in hearing about any other type of antique item that has been stamped with a silversmith-like type of mark, as described above. Bob M. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-29-2005 12:33 PM
Certainly such marks would often indicate a silversmith or jeweler, but should not, out of hand, preclude some other trade. Pewtersmith used them -- Roswell Gleason, the Yales, the Griswolds, to name a few -- as did watch case makers, cutlery makers, gunsmiths, reel makers, engravers, instrument makers, etc. And I don't see why use on a trade coin should indicate a general use to begin with. Anyone so inclined could have a punch made up, especially for a specific use such as marking a trade coin. Perhaps a cabinetmaker stencilled his goods normally or branded them; doing so on a trade coin would make little sense, so he has a punch made to serve the purpose. If I saw a coin containing a background of fine right-slanting parallel lines, I might assume a Philadelphia/Delaware origin, but only because I know that there was a die cutter working in that area that cut such distinctive punches for a number of silversmiths -- Thomas Fletcher, for example. I would not assume a silversmith used it, however; anyone could have ordered it up. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-29-2005 02:20 PM
Also clockmakers' marks on movements, but, then, many clockmakers were also silversmiths. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-30-2005 03:57 PM
In this case, though, it's pretty clear that the marks did turn out (almost certainly, given the unusual intitials) to be those of a silversmith -- O.P. Quintard. So maybe we should have faith in Bob's initial gut reaction. It would be interesting to compare some silversmiths' marks side-by-side with contemporary ones of pewterers, etc., and see if we can find any distinguishing characteristics. I'd wager from what I've seen that the silver ones are smaller, more linear, and more sharply carved, given the nature of the metal and the fact that they were intended (unlike most pewter marks) for spoon stems as well as hollowware. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-30-2005 04:05 PM
There is nothing at all to suggest that O. P. Quintard was a silversmith. Given his connection to the Brooklyn Bridge and the iron contracts handled by the Quintard Iron Works, it seems entirely likely he was involved in that business. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-30-2005 06:02 PM
Although a great many pewter marks were larger ones suitable only for hollow ware, you can examine the photographic plates in Montgomery's A History of American Pewter (a Winterthur book), and you will find no less than 40 pewterers with illustrated in cameo marks that are indistinguishable from those of silversmiths. These marks were used on holloware (by themselves or accompanied by larger marks) as well as being suitable for spoons. Most are straight edged, a few are scalloped or serrated. Only those of Israel Trask and Oliver Trask, both of whom were trained as silversmiths, also appear on silver (from the same punches). There are also a number of incised or intaglio name marks as well. Below is the in cameo mark of Charles Parker, a pewter spoon maker, whose mark is not illustrated in this book. IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-30-2005 06:15 PM
Swarter, thanks ... I know nothing about pewterers' marks, but will take your word for it. However, I disagree that the Parker mark you illustrate looks just like a silversmith's. The letters are smaller relative to the cartouche than I'd expect on a silversmith's mark. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-30-2005 06:38 PM
I would be very leery of adopting any sort of guideline based on the relationship of letter form to cartouche size -- the 2000 or so in my file run from tight to loose with all stops between. This one is certainly looser than most, but not outrageously so. For another example, here is Roswell Gleason's which looks like a perfectly normal mark for a silversmith, which he was not. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-30-2005 07:04 PM
Although the margins are on the wide side, it can be matched by at least a few other silver punches. I only put up the Parker mark because I happened to have it and don't believe I have ever seen a photograph of it published anywhere. The others you can see in the above mentioned book (or any one of several other larger books on American pewter). IP: Logged |
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akgdc Posts: 289 |
posted 01-30-2005 09:06 PM
Thanks, gentlemen .. you've both answered my question. Bob, do you you have any examples of documented pewterers' marks counterstamping coins? IP: Logged |
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florida_bob Posts: 54 |
posted 01-31-2005 07:13 PM
Some pewterers who countermarked coins: Israel Trask There were others as well. However, every one of the known pewterer marks found on coins also appear on silverware. There are some "large initial" type countermarks on coins that are attributed to pewterers, but the attributions are doubtful. Bob M. IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 06-25-2008 04:37 AM
Orestes Penthilus Quintard is recorded as having been a clerk at various locations in New York Cityt hroughout the 1840', 50's and into the 60's . From 1874 to 1878 he was the secretary of the Board of Commissioners for the construction of the Brooklyn bridge. Upon his death the New York Times reported that he left his family very little, and the bridge Board of Trustees somewhat reluctantly voted to give the remainder of his $4000.00 annual salary to his widow. In sum he seems to have been a successful administrator with no particular mechanical abilities. IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 06-25-2008 10:33 AM
My last post showed Orestes serving on the Brooklyn bridge board of directors until 1878 which is not correct and due to an incorrect source. Apparently, he died in March of 1885 while serving on the board. O P Q & Co may have been an insurance agency operated Orestes and his son James H. IP: Logged |
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