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posted 02-03-2005 10:40 AM            

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I'd like to know why Bailey & Co. used an elephant, of all things, as an occasional part of their coin standard mark.

The sifter in the picture carries mark #2, with a large elephant (is there any other kind?) in place of the large lion of the sterling standard. Why not a large eagle?? Does anyone else have this mark on Bailey coin silver?

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posted 02-03-2005 12:57 PM            

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"Barnum and Bailey"..... Bad joke I know....
Interesting mark.

Fred

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posted 02-03-2005 04:49 PM            

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The same mark, with a slightly different cartouche, is shown in Caldwell's Tennessee Silversmiths. It is used with the mark of Campbell & Donigan. The choices seem to be that it was used a lot on Bailey silver retailed by C & D or more likely it is a C & D mark added to a Bailey piece retailed by them. Fred you are banned from the forums for a week becaues of that joke.

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posted 02-04-2005 12:49 PM            

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To Fred's defense, I almost made the same joke myself!!

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posted 02-09-2005 12:43 PM            

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I'm curious about the other animal figure (besides the Lion) which looks like a horse or a dog. I have a serving spoon by Bailey with the exact same marks as #1, without the elephant.

While we're on the subject of Bailey, I see in Rainwater 4th ed. that "in 1871 Bailey & Co pubolished their History of Silver, Ancient and Modern." Now this would be an interesting reference to have, does anyone know of any extant copies that could, perhaps, be copied?

To quote further, "[Bailey & Co] claims the distinction, without cavil, of having first introduced silver of the full British standard of 925-1000 the American standard being but 900. The advantages of raising the standard are that it prevents the importation from abroad, and especially from British workshops, for purchasers are assured by a guarantee of receiving silver, pure as that stamped by the English government."

[This message has been edited by mdhavey (edited 02-09-2005).]

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posted 02-11-2005 12:45 AM            

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Hi there Gang,

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posted 02-11-2005 12:56 AM            

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Hi there Gang,

I have a neat pair of beaded pattern ice or salad tongs, 9" long, marked with the "Bailey & Co.", "Eagle, U Shield" mark (#2) on the inside of one arm, and the heffelump mark in a cartouche on the inside at the top of the tongs. Happy to take a photo, if you would like. As always. Marc

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posted 02-11-2005 02:28 AM            

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Any retailer mark?

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posted 02-14-2005 08:56 PM            

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Hi again,

Nope. No retailers mark other than "Bailey & Co." I figured that like the folks at Tiffany, they feel that they are the top of the retail food chain, and "heaven forbid" that something that something made by them is sold with two retailers marks. Marc

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posted 02-19-2005 09:56 AM            

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I finally got to page 142 of McGrew's book on Manufacturers' Marks on American Coin Silver and found the elephant mark. This mark is found on silver from Campbell & Donigan as well as Bailey & Co. It is attributed to Taylor & Lawrie.

John McGrew's book in addition to being a wonderful study of manufacturers' marks also has a section on journeyman marks and a very interesting section on the mechanics of marking silver.

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posted 02-19-2005 10:20 AM            

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Is the attribution simply stated or is some evidence given?

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posted 02-19-2005 10:29 AM            

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If the [eagle] [U] [shield], like the [lion] [S] [shield], is supposed to be the mark of Geo. Sharp working exclusively for Bailey, what is a "Taylor & Lawrie elephant" doing nestling up next to it?

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posted 02-20-2005 02:11 AM            

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The book by Caldwell and R.C. Gill are cited, but I think that is only for the elephant mark and not the connection to Taylor and Lawrie.

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posted 02-20-2005 11:34 PM            

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Page 54 of McGrew notes a spoon with the horse and chevron mark of James Watts with George Sharp mark and believes this to be an indication that manufacturers purchased items for resale from other manufacturers.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 02-20-2005).]

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posted 02-22-2005 07:31 AM            

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The [eagle] [U] [shield], like the [lion] [S] [shield] marks are NOT George Sharp marks. This is a common mistake. They are Bailey retail marks: the U being for coin silver and the S being for sterling. Sharp's mark is lion S lion.

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posted 02-22-2005 11:46 AM            

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So you're saying that Bailey themselves stamped the [eagle][U][shield] and the [lion][S][shield] on the silver, and that they could have bought it from other people besides Geo. Sharp, yes?

This topic has been going round for quite awhile now, there being differing views of just exactly what these marks mean.

This brings up other questions about the marks as well, e.g., did Bailey use them whilst Taylor & Lawrie, supposedly Sharp's predecessors, were making for them? I once saw a die-struck piece marked incuse "BAILEY & CO. T&L PATTERN". And what were the exact years that both T&L, and later Sharp, were working exclusively for Bailey?

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posted 02-22-2005 02:45 PM            

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McGrew references Lion S Lion as the George Sharp mark on his page 54. His reference was to show that manufacturers sometimes purchased items from other manufacturers for resale.

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