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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 Are these for ice cream?
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| Author | Topic: Are these for ice cream? |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 12-25-2005 02:43 AM
  
I have always admired these Wm. Grew spoons and I plan to use them tomorrow for ice cream and cake. I got to thinking, though. Did people eat a lot of ice cream in Cincinnati in the mid 1800's? Are these really ice cream spoons? Why the ridges in the bowls? I've also wondered what that 'JP' marking before the patented date 1855 is? Thanks for looking at my cool spoons (at least I think they're neat). IP: Logged |
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FWG Posts: 845 |
posted 12-25-2005 10:12 AM
Merry Christmas, outwest! Unless I'm mistaken, the JP is for John Polhemus, the pattern designer. If you search him in the Forums you'll find a good deal of information; he designed a number of popular and wonderful patterns. As to ice cream, the hand-crank makers began being patented in the US in the 1840s, and the first commercial production is credited to 1851 in Baltimore, by milk dealer Jacob Fussell, who then built additional plants in DC, Boston, and NY. But it didn't reach widespread regular availability until around 1900, so in the mid-19th century would have been very much a luxury dish, appropriate to be served with its own special utensils. The intended use of a piece is hard to prove, and the actual use may have had no relation to intended purpose anyway, but these certainly look like they could have been ice cream spoons (they could also be berry spoons, I suppose). In the 1890s, an early anthropology professor in Chicago was asked why he always served ice cream at his parties, and he responded, "Because ice cream is the very finest thing there is to eat." I say, eat and enjoy! IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-25-2005 10:26 AM
Your spoons are by John Polhemus (JP) and the pattern is Oriental. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 12-25-2005 10:55 AM
Thank you so much for your response! I'm just waiting to open presents this Xmas morning. I've always admired the design of these spoons. They just seem a cut above a lot of the other things I have. It never even occured to me that JP could be John Polhamus. Very, very cool! It makes sense as I have a Tiffany sugar sprinkle spoon from Polhamus that belonged to the same ancestors. Did he make the designs and other companies made the pieces? Is that how it worked? Or did he make the silver and then Wm. Grew was the retailer? I always thought Wm. Grew was the maker. Would JP sell the molds or designs or what? I suppose instead of peppering the group with questions I should read about him some more. Sorry. I will keep calling them ice cream spoons as that is what we have always called them. It does seem that the time frame is pushing the ice cream envelope. I believe these are circa 1860-1870, although I am not really sure. They could be a few years earlier or later. If I only had that darned Cincinnati Silversmiths book I might be able to pin the age down a little more. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-25-2005 11:31 AM
Here are the patent pages, submitted by Henry Hibbard and John Polhemus and issued 3 July 1855: IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-25-2005 11:48 AM
Turner indicates that the Oriental pattern was introduced in 1855. Noel Turner's book is "American Silver Flatware 1837-1910". The patent number is D715 for this interesting pattern. The patent is classified in Class D7-662 and was issued July 3, 1855. Whether or not it was actually in production at this time is not known by me. You can go to the U.S. Patent Office web site and see a copy of the patent. I imagine ice cream tastes extra special with your spoons. Enjoy! IP: Logged |
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Polly Posts: 1970 |
posted 12-25-2005 02:40 PM
What charming spoons, Outwest! Your ancestors knew how to pick 'em. IP: Logged |
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Ulysses Dietz Moderator Posts: 1265 |
posted 12-28-2005 10:59 AM
Those are wonderful spoons. However, I suspect it might be a little early for such "division of labor" flatware. This is very early in the explosion of flatware patterns in the US, and it seems too early for specialized forms beyond the basic "tablespoon dessert spoon teaspoon" sizes. But, that said, the fluted bowls on your spoons are clearly an attempt to make them more appealling , and who's to say they weren't retailed by this fancy Cincinnati jeweler as "ice cream spoons." All of the specialization of form in the 19th century, hitting its peak in the 1890s, really grows out of the silver manufacturers' desire to sell more silver. It had to start somewhere, and novelty foods would seem to cry out for novelty flatware. Also, Polhamus's "Oriental" pattern seems to anticipate the whole exotic explosion of the 1870s and 80s, so they're very forward looking in that way, too. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 12-29-2005 06:05 PM
Thanks for your comments. Once I started to think about it I, too, started to wonder about them being ice cream spoons. They could have been bought in the late 1850's. They seemed very early for ice cream. But, they work great for ice cream and it feels special when I use them. Is there no source for the pattern that might list all the different utensils made? I always thought it was a little early for an actual pattern, too. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 12-29-2005 11:04 PM
Hi! I have similar scalloped bowl spoons & have been told they were called Sorbet spoons. That said, enjoy them for whatever you choose to use them for. Jersey IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 12-29-2005 11:31 PM
And sometimes they are just for the joy of it. Teaspoon, one of six c 1785 by Paul Revere. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 12-29-2005 11:31 PM
John Polhemus’s Oriental pattern, according to Turner, was obsolete by 1865. I am not sure what Turner’s definition of obsolete was; perhaps that it was no longer in production. In any event it would appear to me that many of Mr. Polhemus’s designs (Turner shows 17) were ahead of their time and that his most creative time was in the 1850’s and 60’s. As one of the design leaders of the time it would make economic sense to introduce new designs for the public to consider. Thomas Jefferson’s Cook Book by Marie Kimball (published by the University of Virginia Press) has Jefferson’s recipe for ice cream. President Washington’s notes indicate that he purchased an ice cream machine on May 1, 1784, but of the two only Jefferson had a written recipe and instructions for making ice cream. From the instructions in his notebook it would appear that it was much more labor intensive than with the mechanical designs of the 1840’s. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 12-30-2005 12:14 AM
[edited by me-guidelines  ]Ahwt, Maybe ice cream spoons wouldn't be so far fetched after all. [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 01-23-2006).] IP: Logged |
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t-man-nc Posts: 327 |
posted 01-03-2006 10:42 AM
I think your Picture is a Fish Server... Most "Ice Cream Knives / Slices" I have or have seen are without curves in the blades and are flat so to speak... A large numbers are engraved, and some pierced, and all very lovely... but flat from what I have seen... Sometimes the Jelly Roll / Cake servers have a slight "Bow" to them and are used for serving slices from Ice Cream Logs or Bars, but a far as that's concerned you could use most servers... In any case, if it works use it... "Smaug" IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-16-2006 11:43 AM
Last week I had to drive things North to drag things up for a daughter's dorm room and decided to take a side trip to my Aunt's house (whom I haven't seen in a number of years).I had a wonderful visit and while I was visiting her I asked if I could see her silver that she received from the family. She has the other six ice cream spoons!!!! So, it was a set of 12! [edited by me-guidelines What to do, what to do. [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 01-23-2006).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-16-2006 11:56 AM
Ask politely. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 01-16-2006 12:33 PM
Outwest: I would mention to her that you had the other six and think they should stay together as a set, then offer to sell your's to her, and as she can't afford them, she will be gracious and offer you hers. Yes I admit that's a bit devilish. IP: Logged |
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tmockait Posts: 963 |
posted 01-16-2006 01:52 PM
Why not be direct? Express your interest, tell her you don't want to casue offense, and that you won't be offended if she says "no." If she has no next of kin, you might suggest that selling you the spoons would keep them in the family. She might appreciate the extra income and will almost certainly get a better price from you than she would from anyone else. Tom IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-21-2006 12:49 PM
(edited post-guidelines? )[This message has been edited by outwest (edited 01-23-2006).] IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 01-21-2006 02:16 PM
Hi! May I suggest 2 things.
Good Luck! Jersey IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-21-2006 03:05 PM
(edited post-guidelines? )good ideas. web search: replacement service: By the way, they list the pattern as sterling?! Could this be a sterling pattern? It isn't marked sterling. [This message has been edited by outwest (edited 01-23-2006).] IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 01-21-2006 08:08 PM
Hi Again! If that price blew your mind don't even think about the the price of the Gorham punch ladle.......do you know that pattern, do the same thing. Do Not be shocked. I have been dying for one and all of the older marks regardless of the pattern are out of my price range. Maybe I can find one in the dumpster that know one knows about. BTW I LOVE your bowl, my friend had one several years ago that I wanted too but was outbid. FWIW Replacement services prices are determined by supply & demand. At auction I have seen that pattern by (Polhemus/Polhamus) go for no money at all, or a lot . Depends on what you consider a lot! They also pay considerably less to buy, than what they sell them for unless it is a really hot item. It's a business lest we forget. Re it being sterling (with no marking as such), I might say that it is also possible that it could be coin silver. That, I can not tell you, or how, to test it to determine the difference. BTW Maybe your Aunt would do a trade? Good luck. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-21-2006 10:08 PM
What you need to ask is what they would pay you, not what you would have to pay them! You would do well to get half of what you paid for something to sell it back - that is the nature of the business (not just silver, but anything). And the same patterns could have been made in both coin and sterling around the time the standards changed. IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-22-2006 02:50 AM
I spoke with my Aunt. She was very kind.  IP: Logged |
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outwest Posts: 390 |
posted 01-30-2006 08:43 PM
 IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 01-30-2006 08:48 PM
So when's the party? I'll bring the porfiteroles. . . IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 01-30-2006 10:16 PM
Way to go, Congratulations! Say Hi and thanks to your Aunt..at least they will stay with the family! Jersey IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-31-2006 02:09 PM
It seems to have been the fate of sets to be broken up among the heirs. It is nice to see the elements of one reunited for a change. Good for you and for your aunt! IP: Logged |
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Trefid Posts: 96 |
posted 06-20-2006 02:37 PM
As a sidenote, I remember reading somewhere that John Polhamus (not Polhemus - Polhemus/Polhamus/Polemus -- you say potato I say spud), besides being a silversmith, was president of the Oriental Bank in NYC. Possibly that's where this pattern name comes from. IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 07-24-2008 05:36 AM
Here's a few more Oriental pieces with H H & Co Patent 1855 and Tiffany & Co markings.  IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 10-09-2008 07:33 AM
quote: There was a John Polhemus who was a New York City banker and bank president who was not the same gentleman that is being discussed. That is not to say that the IP: Logged |
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