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 American Silver before sterling
 tongs -- Elias Pelletreau?
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| Author | Topic: tongs -- Elias Pelletreau? |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-03-2005 03:38 PM
  
[26-0322] Hi, "Sugar tongs -- I took these to a local jeweler who specializes in vintage jewelry and after a cursory look she dismissed them as non-Elias Pelletreau and probably late 19th Century. I'd really like to identify the maker and time period of these tongs, and would appreciate any help or input. I don't even know if they had sugar cubes in the mid-seventeen hundreds. My pictures are not very good, but hopefully they are sufficient to help. I can email more with detail if anyone wishes. There is a repair at the bend -- I assume I should leave this alone. There is a hallmark on the inside of each stem down close to the bowl. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 04-03-2005 05:58 PM
Beautiful tongs; the jeweler is nuts. Here are a few more shots I would suggest a gentle cleaning of the mark to see if it will come up clearer. Use an old, soft toothbrush with soap and water first; if that doesn't work, try a touch of Wright's, but don't over-clean it. IP: Logged |
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labarbedor Posts: 353 |
posted 04-03-2005 06:06 PM
Yes he needs some time in therapy. The mark looks more like ER than EP. One of Pelletreau's marks did look a little like ER but I think the spacing is different. The period depends on where they were made, but they are more likely to be 1790 than 19th century. IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-03-2005 06:32 PM
Thank you to you both. On the hallmark there definitely is something at the bottom right of the "P" but if it's the tail making an "R" it appears to be inconsistent in style with the font of the rest of the hallmark. It is the same on both stems of the tongs. I've done some gentle cleaning and will try to get some better pics. Thanks again, Duncan IP: Logged |
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salmoned Posts: 336 |
posted 04-04-2005 01:56 PM
The last photo in the inital posting clearly appears to be "EP." The others do seem different, but probably are due to poor photography. I stand corrected - after cleaning, the marks do look like "ER" with a damaged R tail. [This message has been edited by salmoned (edited 04-14-2005).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-04-2005 01:57 PM
Family traditions are often inaccurate, but many times with a kernel of truth. In this case, the date is too early, as this style could have been made anywhere between 1785 and 1810, most likely in the 1790's, as has already been indicated. Elias Pelletreau, if he is the maker, had a long career, working actively from 1750 until his death in 1810 (there are account books from his last years), and so had several punches over the course of the years. As such, unless this mark after cleaning can be conclusively tied to someone else, the lack of an exact match would not necessarily rule him out as a possible maker, nor does the time in which the tongs could have been made. The decoration also is consistent with a New York origin (although not exclusive to that area). It would be helpful, therefore, to know where the tongs were made, and if they were in your family for the entire period, knowing where the original owner(s) were living would provide a clue. If you know your family history (or have a relative who does) you could look for a match with the initials on the tongs. There are at least three possible ways these could be read: EMcN, E(&)NMc, or ENMc. On the other hand, if your grandmother's companion was a collector, he may have acquired them, and all bets are off. The only other possibility would be to enquire of Winterthur Museum if they know the wherabouts of the daybooks (mentioned in a book published by them); since they may encompass the period in which the tongw were made, there might be an entry indicating by whom they were purchased and/or for whom they were made, and whoever is in charge of their care might be willing to look for such a mention, since it might be a family piece. As for the repair (which might only make things worse), it might be best left alone - obviously too delicate for further use, the tongs should be preserved as a family heirloom, which is their greatest value, especially given the damage. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 04-04-2005 02:13 PM
His daybooks are in the Long Island Historical Society collection. It would certainly be worth an inquiry. IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-04-2005 05:27 PM
Thanks for all of the above. I went to the Winterthur site. It's a rich resource. I'll pursue that research and post my findings and also work on some better pics. I appreciate your assistance. IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-12-2005 12:06 PM
As suggested, I did some gentle cleaning (no polish yet) and took some more pics. There are two hallmarks and they are identical so I do not think they have been tampered with and/or altered. These are shots of both marks using different angles and light. If it would be advisable, I can use some polish to try to get some even better images. Of course, I'd be interested in and appreciate any thoughts. Also, if I'm able to locate the EP account books, I'll post my findings. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-12-2005 01:10 PM
They sure look more like ER than EP to my eyes, especially now that you have cleaned them, though that maker's punch looks like it was crudely made. Maybe it was an old and worn ER when it was used? IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-12-2005 02:36 PM
With respect to the punch being crude -- the "E" and "P" portions of the hallmark are very crisp and distinct, but there is that blob at the bottom right which raises the question of "P" or "R". [This message has been edited by Duncan Albright (edited 04-12-2005).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-12-2005 04:58 PM
Well, after cleaning, it would appear that there two possibilities: either the R is incomplete due to damage to the punch, or there is what is intended to be a period following the P. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 04-12-2005 05:05 PM
Does anyone have Cutten's South Carolina book? It might be worth checking Enoch Reeves; I remember seeing a mark attributed to him that had a very odd legged R. The time would be right. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 04-12-2005 05:06 PM
Hi. I don't have a stake in whether it is EP or ER. All that I am saying is that when I look at the the photos I am seeing more than a blob that may have been caused by a worn and or damaged die - there seems to be a line attached to the P as if it were an R with a blob on top of it. Also, I am seeing irregularity in the edges of the letters on some of the images, for example on the third one. Maybe it is just the way the photos are showing on my screen. IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-12-2005 07:48 PM
Kimo, Thanks for your input. I am looking for a definitive ID, but may not be able to get it from these marks. Duncan IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-12-2005 09:47 PM
Thanks for your suggestion, WEV. Someone recommended I inquire at the Museum of Early Southern Decorative Arts (MESDA). I'll pursue that and post any findings. You all are such a help. Duncan IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-12-2005 10:16 PM
The initial mark for Reeves shown in Cutten is only a drawn mark, with no indication of any irregularity in the R. Although the letteer form is generally similar, it is inconclusive. The above should have read Burton and not Cutten (Cutten did North Carolina and there is a combined reprint of both works which bears both names). [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 04-14-2005).] IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-14-2005 09:33 AM
I sent an inquiry w/images to the Research Center at MESDA (Old Salem, Inc.) and they kindly responded: __________________________________________ "Your silver mark is similar to the ER mark that we have but minus the pellet (between the "E" and the "R"). E. Milby Burton in SOUTH CAROLINA SILVERSMITHS 1690-1860 has identified an ER mark in a rectangle without the pellet, that looks close to the one you sent, as being the mark Enos Reeves used on his smaller pieces, such as spoons. He usually marked his larger pieces with the REEVES in rectangle mark. Enos Reeves, as you know, worked in Charleston, South Carolina circa 1784-1807. This is probably as close as I can come to identifying your mark. I can't say for certain, but it does seem close to the one in Burton's book. You might contact the Charleston Museum which is suppose to have a spoon by Reeves in their collection." ________________________________________ I'll pursue contacting the Charleston Museum, and in the meantime I wonder if a forum member has access to E. Milby Burton's "SOUTH CAROLINA SILVERSMITHS 1690-1860". IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 04-14-2005 05:45 PM
Duncan - please see the correction to the message preceeding your last. IP: Logged |
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Duncan Albright Posts: 15 |
posted 04-14-2005 06:06 PM
Hi Swarter, Thank you very much. IP: Logged |
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