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 American Silver before sterling
 Another request for help with maker's marks
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| Author | Topic: Another request for help with maker's marks |
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miphi4tbg Posts: 28 |
posted 06-22-2005 10:49 AM
  
Hello again from this new member - I just acquired this tablespoon from eBay (haven't even received it yet), and I am intrigued by the marks. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-22-2005 01:29 PM
There is yet another alternative. He was a smith who bought partially completed silverware from Eoff and did the final work himself. The partially completed can cover a very broad area from roughly cut forms to almost finished products needing just an engraving. There is a lot of inbetween here. IP: Logged |
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Silver Lyon Posts: 363 |
posted 06-22-2005 01:46 PM
If the pseudo-marks are Eoff's and Eoff is the maker, wouldn't the marks already be upon a 'part-finished' piece? Wouldn't they then become either worn or distorted by the later working? Dale, I am curious, where is the evidence for this? I refer, of course, to the making rather than the engraving; the half-finished idea seems strange to me in terms of economics, quite apart from practicality. Here we seem to have a small-scale New York retailer who is unlikely, I think, to have either the tools or skills to do what you suggest. Or am I quite wrong? What was James Ketcham's address in New York?  [This message has been edited by Silver Lyon (edited 06-22-2005).] IP: Logged |
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IJP Posts: 326 |
posted 06-22-2005 03:57 PM
This must be the same Garret Eoff of the Eoff & Moore partnership (c. 1835). As we all know, John Chandler Moore would eventually become very well celebrated in NYC and would in 1851 begin to make goods exclusively for Tiffany, Young, & Ellis (Later Tiffany & Co). His son, Edward Moore, would become Tiffany & Co.'s brilliant design director for the remainder of the 19th century... The silver world is a small one, isn't it? (And I wonder how much influence the work of Garret Eoff had on J.C. Moore, 1835 being rather early in the latter's career...) IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 06-22-2005 04:10 PM
Makers (K) Winterthur has one reference to James Ketchum at the above site and an old auction item lists his address in New York City until 1823 as Pearl and Water Streets. Belden also states that he was in the Utica, NY directories in 1847-49 and in the New York directories from 1806 until 1850.. IP: Logged |
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miphi4tbg Posts: 28 |
posted 06-22-2005 04:47 PM
Thanks to each of you for info provided! I went to the Winterthur DAPC link, but I'm missing something, I think - nothing happens when I click on the Ketcham link. Do I need to register? And if so, how? Also, you are focussing in on Ketcham for me, but I'm still curious as to what his role is with respect to my spoon - apprentice, retailer, etc. Thanks in advance! IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 06-22-2005 10:33 PM
As I recall, Turner goes into the process of how larger makers began furnishing unfinished pieces to the trade. Unfortunately my copy is in storage, like my whole life at this point. The industrial process of semi-production, of making pieces and parts to be finished on site, was advancing in the early 19th century. There were shops that turned out table legs, stair spindles, pewter molds, silver forms and logically unfinished silver. I have seen quite a bit of Wood & Hughs over the years. Some of it is quite wonderfully done. Some is really pedestrian in execution. The less skilled the finishing, the more likely there is to be the mark of a local maker alongside the W&H. Which lead the people who collected this to surmise that the local had bought unfinished items from W&H and finished them to order. All of which seems very commercially logical to me at least. I have also seen a couple of flat spoons, just an outline done in silver, with a maker's mark on them. These were believed to be destined for completion at some future date in some faraway place. For a local silversmith to have on hand a number of spoon and fork blanks that could be done up to local standards and taste seems like a very logical commercial method. Plus flat items are much easier to ship. Certainly it would have been less expensive than shipping finished products. This way Letitia could have her own personalized spoons in a matter of weeks, rather than the months required to order them from a major maker. Has anyone ever studied this? Perhaps the smiths here could explain how a prestamped blank might be worked without damaging the mark. Anyway, contemporary jeweler's catalogs are filled with items that can be finished by the local jeweler to his customer's taste and pocketbook. And probably, these have been there as long as there have been wholesalers. Best I can do now, IP: Logged |
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miphi4tbg Posts: 28 |
posted 06-24-2005 10:31 AM
Thanks, Dale--that is an interesting line of thought that someone (not I  ) could pursue. And thanks again to all who helped me with this question!IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 06-25-2005 11:38 PM
Dales question about how a marked blank can be finished without harming the marks is simple in concept and practice. A spoon blank in its flat stage is close to being finished, only the bowl needs to be sunk and the handle cranked. Both those actions will not deform the marks. Marks are not put on until all the hammering is done, at least the forging. After stamping the marks need to be "set", meaning the silver behind and around the marks needs to be gently hammered back to flat. After this the marks are pretty hardy and one would have to have a heavey hand to mar them. IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 06-27-2009 07:30 AM
Some James Ketcham listings: 1850 U S Federal Census for New York, New York watchmaker; born in New York in about 1783. Longworth's 1827 New York Directory watchmaker at 216 Water. Manhattan, New York City, New York Directory 1839-1840 watchmaker at 373 Pearl. IP: Logged |
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middletom Posts: 467 |
posted 07-01-2009 05:25 PM
Dale-- Though I've no expertise in history of flatware making, I wonder if a small shop, buying pieces from a larger firm to finish for local customers, would have the equipment or tools for making forks. Spoon punches, likely, but forks are more complicated and would not be within the capabilities of most retailers or small producers. Just my guess, I may be wrong. middletom IP: Logged |
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