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tline3open  Ball, Black and Co.

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Author Topic:   Ball, Black and Co.
ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-27-2006 03:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The name Ball, Black and Co was in use from 1851 until 1874. Charles Venable in his book “Silver in America” notes that they used the 950 standard from 1858 to1860 and I assume during this time period used the above mark. None of the references I have actually show this mark or provide dates of when this company produced 950 silver.

Does anyone know if this mark actually dates this bowl to 1858 to 1860 or did they continue to produce 950 silver in addition to 925 after 1860?

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Richard Kurtzman
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Posts: 759
Registered: Aug 2000

iconnumber posted 08-27-2006 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Richard Kurtzman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The mark in the center looks to be that of John Wendt. I would date this to 1860 or possibly later.

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 08-27-2006 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Richard. Rainwater shows a similar shield for Wendt. Venable's biography section shows that Wendt occupied the fourth and fifth floors of the Ball Black building from 1860 until his retirement.

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 09-12-2006 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there a relationship between this mark:

and the original posters?

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-12-2006 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do not know of any connection between the two. Kovel lists S. S. as the initials for the Ball in Jones, Ball and Co. I assume this comes from one of the references cited at that entry. I think that the Ball in Ball, Black and Co was Henry.

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 09-12-2006).]

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 09-12-2006 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Being a bit curious I tried a search and found a few things. This letter to the editor of Silver Magazine in March/April 2002 by

Edward Pattillo
Montgomery, Alabama
comments:

    Marquand’s company was succeeded by Ball, Tompkins & Black and then by Ball, Black. Mr. Brady comments that “by the late 1850s Ball, Black & Co.…under various firm names had been producing silver made to the coin standard since 1819.” In fact these successive companies were not silversmiths at all. They had silver made for them by some of the finest smiths of the era, among them the Eoffs and the great William Forbes, and occasionally the initials of the actual maker are found in conjunction with the Ball, Black retailer’s stamp. Stating that Ball, Black actually produced silver would be misleading to say the least. Unfortunately, dealer’s ads often state “Made by Ball, Black & Co.,” or whatever other retail jeweler’s marks are at hand. Dealers and auction houses would do a great service by identifying silver of the period as “Made for Jones, Ball & Poor,” or “James Conning,” or “Carrington & Co.” for some instances, rather than “made by” any of them. There were a great many retail jewelers in this prosperous era but precious few genuine silver manufacturers.

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 09-12-2006 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, I also found an entire article in silver magazine dated Nov/Dec 1998 that shows a tea set with strikingly similar designs (the waste bowl is VERY much the same) to your beautiful bowl. It is marked by Rogers and Wendt, but also Jones, Shreve, and Brown Co. in...Boston...

Wendt was stolen away in 1860 to...New York...to Ball, Black and Company. So, Jones, Shreve and Brown (who were either before or after Jones, Ball and Co) were in Boston and Ball, Black and Co. were in New York, but they had a connection through Wendt. What is to say that there wasn't another connection between the two Balls in the decade before or after?

It seems mighty suspicious.

You should search for that article. You will see what I mean about them being so similar to your bowl. Perhaps some more hunting around might get you the answer about your 950 silver. It sure seems to glow in the picture!

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-12-2006 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Outwest, I will look for that issue. I think our Art Museum has back copies.

Perhaps Wendt started this design when he was in Boston and simply carried the design with him when he went to New York. I look forward to seeing the rest of the tea set.

I suspect many if not most of the small to medium size bowls I see today from this time period started out as waste bowls. They are useful today as just bowls and they often get separated from the rest of the tea set.
Thanks again for the connection.
Art

[This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 09-12-2006).]

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 09-13-2006 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The article is right on line with pictures, too. I didn't feel comfortable copying it here. Just do a quick search, you'll find it. wink Type in 'Wendt Article'.

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ahwt

Posts: 2173
Registered: Mar 2003

iconnumber posted 09-13-2006 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks again Outwest. That is an interesting article on Wendt and the waste bowl does look to be by the same designer as the Ball, Black one. The later version is not as complicated as the earlier one and that does surprise me. Usually I think of designs starting unadorned or simple and gradually getting more complicated as time passes. This one seems just the reverse.

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doc

Posts: 712
Registered: Jul 2003

iconnumber posted 09-13-2006 01:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Ball of Jones Ball & Poor was True M. Ball (along with George Jones and Nathaniel Poor). Jones Ball & Poor was founded in Boston in the 1840's through approximately 1853. Through several iterations, including Jones Shreve & Brown (c.1854-1857), Jones Low & Ball (? date) and Shreve Brown & Co. (? date), the company became Shreve Crump & Low in 1869.

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outwest

Posts: 390
Registered: Nov 2005

iconnumber posted 09-13-2006 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for outwest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jones, Ball and Poor of Boston 1846-1852 (according to a major auction house).

Jones, Ball and Co of Boston only for one years (?!) 1852. Could this be true? and THEN:

Ball, Black and Co of New York 1851-1874
at the same approximate time that the Ball drops off of Jones and he becomes Jones, Shreve and Brown (1854-57-hmm...couple years off there).

I still think there is something fishy in the connections/years. I will continue to check it out for fun.

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bascall

Posts: 1626
Registered: Nov 99

iconnumber posted 04-28-2009 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If the following documentation is deemed credible, Jones, Ball & Poor and Jones, Lows, & Ball were coexisting in 1837: The Exhibitions and Fairs of Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association By Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association at Faneuil and Quincy Halls in the City of Boston, 1837. It was the association's first fair and both companies were silver medal winners.

"N B," George B Jones was born on 27 March 1815 in Boston.

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 04-28-2009).]

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