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Author Topic:   Original Olive Pattern Designer
bascall

Posts: 1629
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iconnumber posted 06-24-2008 08:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone know who designed the Olive pattern that is so familiar to coin silver collectors, or who is given credit for first introducing it? There is someone that seems like a good candidate to me, but let's see if anyone has the "right answer?"

[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-24-2008).]

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wev
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iconnumber posted 06-24-2008 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you mean who actually invented it or who, in the United States, first appropriated the design and called it their own?

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-24-2008 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In my narrow mindedness, it would be the American who first claimed it, but naturally the complete answer with all the possibilities is best.

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wev
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iconnumber posted 06-24-2008 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, Hyde & Goodrich, imitating their French imports, were offering olive pattern wares by 1823 at least.

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ellabee

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iconnumber posted 06-25-2008 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wev, any chance for an image of those 1823 H&G Olive tongs you referred to in another thread?

I'd be interested to see how closely the pattern resembles the 1840s versions.

That look is my favorite of all the pattern styles out there. If I could snap my fingers and have custom-made flatware, I'd want an Olive-style pattern, heavy-weight, with serving pieces geared to modern needs.

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wev
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iconnumber posted 06-25-2008 07:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

A very simple, early form.

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ellabee

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iconnumber posted 06-26-2008 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, wev!

That is a most appealing, simple Olive.

You were right about the detail on the claws. The Dominick & Haff ice and sugar tongs here (1884) have just those same ends, very realistic.

Truthfully, they creep me out a bit; I'd like them better if they were more stylized.

If I can get the batteries to charge (may have to get a new charger), I'll supply a pic of a salt spoon marked 'Wm. F. Ladd' (1828-45?) in an Olive variation that I haven't seen elsewhere.

Will be interested to hear others' thoughts on other producers of early 'Olive' pieces.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 06-26-2008 04:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Could someone provide a link to the other discussion of the early Olive pattern examples. Thanks, Art

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ellabee

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iconnumber posted 06-26-2008 09:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hyde & Goodrich:

quote:
I have a pair of sugar tongs in olive pattern with the most detailed claw ends I have ever seen. They are marked 'Hyde & Goodrich' incuse on each arm. The interesting bit is that they are also scratch marked '2 oz/61 dwt/1823' which would, if it is to be believed, indicate a very early date for this pattern.

[This message has been edited by ellabee (edited 06-26-2008).]

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wev
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iconnumber posted 06-26-2008 10:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That should have read "incised on each arm."

[This message has been edited by wev (edited 06-26-2008).]

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 06-26-2008 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks ellabee that is an interesting thread and pair of tongs.

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-27-2008 05:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My guess was Michael Gibney's Patent number: D59, Issue date: Jul 10, 1846.
He lays claim to the emblishments in particular.


[This message has been edited by bascall (edited 06-28-2008).]

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wev
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iconnumber posted 06-27-2008 05:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wev     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Reminds me of the guy who patented the peanut butter and jelly sandwich a few years back.

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Ulysses Dietz
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iconnumber posted 06-28-2008 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulysses Dietz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think that incised 1823 is a date; I'd need more proof to believe that claw-ended olive tongs were made that early. I'm willing to be convinced, but I'd be more inclined to see those as significantly later in H&G's history, like the 1850s.

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ellabee

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iconnumber posted 06-29-2008 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gibney! I'm so glad to have a name to put to the Olive version shown above. It's similar to the version made by Gorham, which I've called to myself the "light chain" version (for the decoration at the bottom).

What I think of when someone mentions the Olive pattern, though, is this one, which for discussion purposes we could call the 'leafy' version:

It's found marked with the names of many retailers, in coin, sterling, and silverplate. I've also seen examples that have what I'd thought of as maker's marks (e.g., the Sharp marks of Bailey & Co.).

Was this a version made by one firm and sold to others? I've seen several sellers attributing it to William Gale.

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ellabee

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iconnumber posted 06-29-2008 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Gibney-patented version is identical to the one identified as Tuscan in Noel Turner's book, and here in a thread on Olive (The Olive Standard (1850)) from the defunct Collecting Place Settings forum.

The shape of the ends of pieces in the "standard" (leafy) version of Olive varies from pointed, as in the example pictured in my post above, to rounded, as in the images at the top of the Collecting Place Settings thread.

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ellabee

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iconnumber posted 06-29-2008 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ellabee     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Olive family of patterns appeals greatly, and this thread has been a stimulus to organize a lot of random notes and images.

No doubt there are many variants beyond these, but here's a shot at an initial classification:

Patterns named 'Olive' by their designers/makers:

1. Gibney-patented 1846, produced (patented?) as 'Tuscan' soon thereafter by Wm. Gale, and later by Whiting. Rounded end.

2. Standard, "leafy" version 1850s, assumed never patented.
Definitely produced by Gale entities, Bailey & Co. (Sharp), and ...? Versions in coin, sterling, and silverplate. Shape varies from pointed oval to rounded oval.

3. Gorham 1865 ("light chain"): big, drippy three-part top leaf, long bottom leaf ending in pendant beads; pointed end.

Olive "family" patterns:

1. Early French imports / H&G copies
2. Louis XIV - pat. 1847, John Moore
3. "Grapes" - pat. 1850, ___? examples from a Southern coin silver seller w/maker marks from Baltimore and Boston.
4. Empire - pat. 1857, John Polhamus?
5. Waterlily - Vanderslice (firm operated 1857 onward)
6. unnamed - pat. 1859, Philo Gilbert

Fitting into the family somewhere is this variant:

It's a master salt spoon with the maker's mark for Wm F Ladd (1832-46?) in a rectangle punch, and also incised 'sterling'. Awfully early for sterling, might have been added later by retailer.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 07-24-2008 02:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wev's olive pattern by Hyde and Goodrich is shown under the completed auctions section of eBay at numbers 260262564156, 250270435261 and 260262564127. I suspect that they were made by Wood and Hughes.

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 08-20-2008 05:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's an example of the 1846 Peanut Butter and Jelly, uh, I mean, Michael Gibney patented pattern.

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Trefid

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iconnumber posted 06-26-2009 05:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trefid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 06-26-2009 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
biggrin Nice to see all these similar patterns together with many names. Thank you!

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Trefid

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iconnumber posted 07-09-2009 04:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trefid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to disappoint you, bascall, but the names in quotes are my own--not any I've found in the literature. I have to call them something so I can identify them.

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bascall

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iconnumber posted 07-09-2009 10:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bascall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ah well, your names will work. You may have set the standard.

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Trefid

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iconnumber posted 10-26-2010 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Trefid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's also a Newell Harding-marked "leafy olive" (I all it the Boston OLIVE) variant with extra leaves on the middle sides. Fairly rare, I think. I'm always suspicious of anything marked with Harding's backstamp, because his firm used it as a retail mark as well as a maker's mark. A lot of Knowles & Ladd-produced silver is attributed to Harding's firm.

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vathek

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iconnumber posted 05-12-2017 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This morning I picked up a set of unmarked coin spoons in an olive variant pattern. This has let me to this post and it's the one labeled 'corn ear' and also unmarked. Since this is an old post I'm wondering if anyone has since run across this pattern or have seen it listed by another name?

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vathek

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iconnumber posted 05-12-2017 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vathek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In re: to Wev's post above showing the patent from Gibney the set also included a master butter knife with an "1846 patent" stamp and identical to the Gibney illustration but signed N E Crittenden.

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 06-03-2023 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote



These are forks in the Olive pattern that were retailed by Braverman and Levy. They used a variation of their own design as I have not found this pattern elsewhere. Or perhaps I just missed it. I do not know who made these forks.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 06-04-2023 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RichardT posted 06-04-2023 05:04 PM in the New Members Forum
quote:

These forks were made by Vanderslice of San Francisco in the company's Olive variant known as "Waterlily".
Here's a Waterlily gravy ladle.

And here's a detail of the reverse:

The marks from left to right are: V&Co, the maker; Geo C. Shreve & Co., the retailer; and S.F.CAL, the place. The raised L on the last mark is indicative of Vanderslice's earlier work.

[This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 06-04-2023).]

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 06-05-2023 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for that information Scott. Vanderslice would have been the maker of these forks and they have the raised L in the CAL mark. Vanderslice may have stamped all the marking on these Braverman and Levy forks.
It is interesting how a manufacturer/retailer in the same city with another retailer sold the same products.
Today I have several friends that used to sell products in a store but had to stop as the manufacturer stated selling the same thing online.

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Scott Martin
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iconnumber posted 06-05-2023 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Martin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not me. All RichardT

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ahwt

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iconnumber posted 07-14-2023 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ahwt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote




This is another pattern that I think would fall within the heading of Olive pattern variations. These spoons had two different retailers, first Goldsmith and then second C. G. Barnes. I do not know who the manufacturer was.

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