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Another Rarity on The WestCoast Site

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Author	Topic: Another Rarity on The WestCoast Site
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 07-05-2008 08:13 AM Have recently seen the picture below on David Shlossy's excellent site on Sugar Nips silverteatongs.com The pair were apparently listed as "Silver Sugar Scissors, Jacob Hurd (1702/03-58) Boston." They realized a price of over around US$x,xxx. If English they were are worth around US$ xxx. David was somewhat dubious about these - and rightly so IMHO. I have a pair of buckles with an identical makers mark The question is :- If I remove the 1740 -1756 English Lion Passant Guardant London Assay mark which is on my pair can I get thousands of dollars for them , or would Joseph Hurds mark be more valuable if I claimed he came to London on holiday in 1753 and just used our assay office once or twice ? Seriously in fact I cannot trace this silversmith as the mark is undoubtedly in lost London 1740 -1758 register. It could be Joseph Harmer or even Joseph Healey. But who spends so much money on a pair of frankly rather ordinary tongs without checking the very useful American Silversmiths first ? IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 07-05-2008 08:55 AM Around 2 to 4 years ago I sold a pair with the identical mark and this includes the wear. I bought them as English simply because I wanted an example of scissor type tongs and could not afford the American one. The buyer was adamant that the mark was Jacob Hurd and jokingly I responded with a "sure they are". I can not believe that anyone would believe this particular mark to be Hurds' mark. I take that back; after seeing what some sellers list on internet auction sites I believe just about anything now. As for buyers, as well as some sellers, a bunch of them need to spend some of that money on references and visiting collections in various institutions to learn style, function, appropriate decoration and actually see the marks. Whatever happened to that bit of advice - get a written money back guarantee. IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 07-05-2008 09:03 AM They almost have the correct cartouche for on of the Jacob Hurd marks. IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 07-05-2008 09:45 AM Bascall - Do you mean the full surname mark of Hurd or another set of IH intials ? The two marks given by the American Silversmiths site are both full surname in Capitals - and although the punch is quite a decorative one and does bear a passing resemblance to the English mark but given the details of Hurds life it is unlikely that he ever spent time in England. If you have seen a IH initials mark attributed to Hurd it would be interesting to know on what basis this was linked to him. I am very cynical concerning makers marks on buckles - a full 25% of the attributions I see are wrong, and I am not sure that some of mine won't be proved wrong in future. I tend to use a grading system. "By" means 99% sure "Almost certainly " means at least 90% sure "Probably " means 50% to 90% sure "Perhaps " means 25% to 50% sure "Possibilities include " the makers marks that follow cannot be ruled out ! IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 07-05-2008 09:52 AM Yes, the fuller mark. It's probably just a coincidence. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 07-05-2008 10:13 AM This is the initial mark shown in Kane Nine pairs of tongs are listed in the catalog of his known work; the seven with readable marks all use HURD in a plain rectangular cartouche (Kane mark D). IP: Logged
FWG Posts: 845 Registered: Aug 2005	posted 07-05-2008 10:17 AM While I think there is no question that these are not the work of Hurd, and are almost certainly English, there is an IH mark recorded for him that is superficially similar. It is given as mark G in Kane's Colonial Massachusetts Silversmiths and Jewelers (which has a great entry for Hurd, seems to be authoritative, and last I checked was available online at absurdly low prices for what it is). Looking at the list of surviving pieces, unless I miss one, she lists that mark as being found only on teaspoons and tablespoons; of the 9 recorded tongs 7 have the small version of the HURD mark, 2 have marks not recorded. I once had an opportunity to acquire a pair of pristine Hurd tablespoons, but took the path of integrity and referred the owner to a reputable auction gallery.... IP: Logged
swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 Registered: May 2003	posted 07-05-2008 11:39 AM They would have had better luck claiming it was John Strangeways Hutton (it isn't), but that was the first thing that came to mind when I saw it. What is the second mark? A partial second strike of the same punch or something else? [This message has been edited by swarter (edited 07-05-2008).] IP: Logged
Clive E Taylor Posts: 450 Registered: Jul 2000	posted 07-05-2008 02:59 PM My guess is that this partial mark is the bottom half of a Lion Passant Guardant of the London 1740- 1756 form - the two spiked type .(There were at least two varieties of this punch, two or three spiked versions. It was originally thought that they were of different dates, but recent research has shown they probably co-existed, and bang went some datings !) Also what better luck could the vendor want than to sell it for literally 20 times it's market value ! As Argentum1 remarks, money spent on reference books and above all study of actual articles , is necessary if you are going to spend several thousand dollars. Your antique education is always an ongoing experience , and there is no teacher better than making expensive mistakes - but not at this level ! [This message has been edited by Clive E Taylor (edited 07-05-2008).] IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 07-05-2008 08:32 PM quote: But who spends so much money on a pair of frankly rather ordinary tongs without checking the very useful American Silversmiths first? Ta. IP: Logged

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