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Another weird unknown piece

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Author	Topic: Another weird unknown piece
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 09-10-2008 07:08 PM Hi all, I love strange silver, and while this wonderful piece will fit in that category, the question boils down to "what is it ?"... I know that the blade resembles a miniature flensing tool in its shape, which leads my second guess to its being a fish server. My first guess was an ice cream slice, because of its relative (but not complete) flatness, and weird shape. My friends are divided. Would folks have had large ice cream slices in those days? The date in the makers device is 1848. Retailer is Gregg & Hayden of Charleston SC. So.... What is it? Thanks for your help in advance IP: Logged
argentum1 Posts: 602 Registered: Apr 2004	posted 09-10-2008 07:13 PM A damaged fish slice with the end cut off to make it once again useful. Boy, is that a long shot or what. IP: Logged
Polly Posts: 1970 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 09-10-2008 08:21 PM I was going to guess what Argentum guessed. When I was growing up, my favorite dinner knife, from the family set of Georg Jensen stainless, was the one whose tip had snapped off, so my dad had someone (?? Who could it have been? A jeweler?? A friend with a hacksaw?? Dad himself?) cut and file the end into a round knob. IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 09-10-2008 09:42 PM Hi guys, Fish slices tend to be about 11" to 13" long and this one is 11" long and shows no sign of being broken.. It is a good solid piece and weighs 4.1 troy oz... Ice cream anyone? And if I am not mistaken, when you serve fish, it generally doesn't fight back. For what it is worth, I have not polished it, so it does have a little dirtier than most of the photos I post. Marc [This message has been edited by Marc (edited 09-10-2008).] IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 09-10-2008 11:47 PM Perhaps a fried egg or buckwheat server. IP: Logged
doc Posts: 728 Registered: Jul 2003	posted 09-11-2008 11:34 AM I tend to agree that it probably started life as a larger piece. I don't know the technical term for it, but the "tail" at the bottom of the blade where it joins the handle is sufficiently large that it indicates to me that it was needed for reinforcement of a larger blade. IP: Logged
Dale Posts: 2132 Registered: Nov 2002	posted 09-17-2008 12:23 AM Going out on a limb, I would call it a ramekin server. The gentle curve could nestle up to any type of ramekin, push it into a reachable spot and then lift the ramekin out of its bath and onto a plate. The tail is needed for the extra weight of the ramekin. IP: Logged
rian Posts: 169 Registered: Jan 2006	posted 09-17-2008 07:32 AM If it isn't a ramekin server, it should be. Now I want one too! IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 09-17-2008 08:30 AM Dale, I like the ramekin idea but souldn't the handle be insulated? IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 09-17-2008 04:24 PM Dale and Scott You may have something there. Yes, the handle would get warm, but the narrow neck would only transfer heat to the broad handle slowly. Also, didn't cooks wear gloves or use towels when dealing with hot handles? Marc IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 09-18-2008 08:14 AM If a ramekin server I would think other examples would have been observed? IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 09-18-2008 08:56 AM Cooking tools are not often silver. Serving tools are often silver. Butlers and other servers often wear gloves when serving. If Dale is correct that the item is a ramekin server then a gloved butler would mitigate the heat question. Valtek's point " ...other examples would have been observed?" is reasonable .... maybe this the first to be documented? IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 09-18-2008 01:38 PM Hi again, once more, Would Charleston have been a city with enough of an upper class to have utilized a server like this in the 1848 period? Marc IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 09-18-2008 09:29 PM ...plate...is a sure friend at a dead lift. It works here too! IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 09-18-2008 10:32 PM I have to say, having served any number of dishes involving ramekins, that I can see no use for this tool. I have, on the other hand, seen a number of serving pieces with similar blades in manufacturer catalogs listed as cake ice cream slices -- cake meaning slab, rather than in a canister or tub. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-19-2008 12:34 PM Marc: Would Charleston have been a city with enough of an upper class to have utilized a server like this in the 1848 period? Yes. The determining factors seem to me to be not the size in numbers of the upper class, but their wealth and connections with sources for this kind of item. Charleston more than qualified on both counts. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-19-2008 12:37 PM My vote's on the ice cream slice, as well. IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 09-20-2008 09:30 AM Figure 13 on page 184 of the book "Feeding Desire - Design and Tools of the Table" shows an ice cream slice in the Persian pattern by Edward C. Moore for Tiffany that has a blade of similar design. The Moore design has several features that create a pleasant or gracious design, while the Gale and Hayden design conveys a desolate or bleak feeling and would be somewhat out of place at an ice cream social. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-20-2008 01:10 PM ahwt: The Moore design has several features that create a pleasant or gracious design, while the [G&H] design conveys a desolate or bleak feeling No question there's something menacing and weaponlike about the item Marc's pictured. What are the more pleasing features of the Tiffany piece -- just decorative engraving, or...? IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-20-2008 01:15 PM While not a supporter of the ramekin server theory, I'm glad it came up, as it provided the opportunity for bascall's bon mot. [This message has been edited by ellabee (edited 09-20-2008).] IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 09-20-2008 01:58 PM Granted I am over using that quote or rather part of it, but thank you ellabee. The piece looks disfigured to my amateur eye. IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 09-20-2008 05:06 PM Hi once again, If you look at the bottom photo of the server, (marked 'BACK'), this looks like the cutting position for this implement. Designed for the right hand user. The front curved edge has the same wear as the top edge and has the same color.. Also, if the server had been broken, why not treat it like other broken pieces and recycle it. Heaven forbid that you get caught using a broken server when having fish. I can hear the neighbors talk, I can see invites being withdrawn. "Thrown off the list, we was"... We are not the only disposable society when it comes to goods. Madam would normally have had someone take the pieces to the silversmith, to hold until she could come down and order a new server. And she would complain that, "it broke... things just aren't made as good as they were in the olden days". A few questions come to mind.. 1. What are the realistic situations that would have preserved this broken server? 2. It is 11" long now.. How long would it have been before the break? 3.What would it have looked like originally? Speculation please.. Thanks as always Marc IP: Logged
ahwt Posts: 2334 Registered: Mar 2003	posted 09-20-2008 10:49 PM The first picture below is the Persian ice cream slice shown in the “Feeding Desire” book. The second picture shows a selection of Tiffany ice cream servers shown in Figure 185 of William P. Hood’s book “Tiffany Silver Flatware”. Included in this grouping is one in the Japanese pattern (fourth from the right) that has a blade similar to the Persian example. The Japanese pattern example is stated to be 11 ¾ inches long – no dimensions are given for the Persian example. The forward portion of both these examples has a pleasing curve. Nike used this curve for their logo, but the “swoosh” is just not in the Gale and Hayden example. The Tiffany examples also have decoration on the upper edge of the blade that softens the appearance. This is not to say that added decoration on the Gale and Hayden example would be helpful. On a plain piece the outline or profile is the most important element in its appearance and here I feel that the forward portion ends in a jarring and abrupt manner. IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-20-2008 11:40 PM Here's another example of an ice cream slice that would be a lot more forbidding without all the frou-frou decoration and curly bits: IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-21-2008 12:04 AM Marc's piece seen in the same aspect as the other slice: IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-21-2008 12:07 AM It's not broken. It's the same size as the other ice cream slices (11"). It's just a not very graceful, not particularly attractive one. IP: Logged
Marc Posts: 414 Registered: Jun 2002	posted 09-21-2008 02:29 AM Hi there Ahwt and ellabee.. First of all, thanks to you Ahwt for posting all those neat ice cream slices.. I would have thought several of them were for fish..This changes 3 pieces that I have been calling fish servers into ice cream slices. And thank you ellabee for rotating my photo .. I was thinking about it, but you read my mind. I guess that if the blade is engraved with a polar bear it is an ice cream slice, and if engraved with a river scene it is a fish slice, and if it is engraved with "Sponge Bob", it is a "Crabby Patty" lifter. What fun! Thanks for all your help. Marc IP: Logged
ellabee Posts: 306 Registered: Dec 2007	posted 09-21-2008 02:51 AM if it is engraved with "Sponge Bob", it is a "Crabby Patty" lifter Makes me wish my Photoshopping skills were up to that challenge... IP: Logged
dragonflywink Posts: 993 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 09-21-2008 11:19 AM ~Cheryl IP: Logged
bascall Posts: 1629 Registered: Nov 99	posted 09-21-2008 02:40 PM It's time for me to eat my words. A slice of ice cream would go down much easier. IP: Logged
Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 Registered: Apr 93	posted 09-21-2008 05:47 PM Cheryl That is excellent! IP: Logged
FredZ Posts: 1070 Registered: Jun 99	posted 09-21-2008 05:51 PM What a smile that last image brought! It is great to temper thought provoking speculation and discovery with frivolity and fun. Thanks, Fred IP: Logged
June Martin Forum Master Posts: 1326 Registered: Apr 93	posted 09-21-2008 06:20 PM Priceless! To refer to an earlier thread somewhere in the forums, I think the Sponge Bob engraved ice cream slice is now my favorite piece of silver. IP: Logged
Polly Posts: 1970 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 09-21-2008 10:02 PM Sponge Bob even looks a bit like a block of ice cream. Any other oldsters remember those blocks of tricolor (chocolate-vanilla-strawberry) ice cream that came in a cardboard box? You would unbox it onto a plate and dish out tricolored slices at your birthday party. IP: Logged
wev Moderator Posts: 4121 Registered: Apr 99	posted 09-21-2008 11:06 PM Oldsters? Still sell it at my local market -- never touch the stuff. IP: Logged
dragonflywink Posts: 993 Registered: Dec 2002	posted 09-21-2008 11:54 PM Neopolitan, standard fare in our house when I was a kid, as one of those who didn't like different flavors to overlap, it was distressing (the BF still says I'm still just one step away from OCD). Stuff goes back to the 19th century. ~Cheryl [This message has been edited by dragonflywink (edited 09-21-2008).] IP: Logged
vathek Posts: 966 Registered: Jun 99	posted 10-11-2008 02:24 PM I thought I would post this butter knife by W&H in the byzantine pattern since it also has a truncated end. IP: Logged

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