SMP Logo
SM Publications
Silver Salon Forums - The premier site for discussing Silver.
SMP | Silver Salon Forums | SSF - Guidelines | SSF - FAQ | Silver Sales

The Silver Salon Forums
Since 1993
Over 11,793 threads & 64,769 posts !!
American Silver before sterling Forum

A GLOSSARY of MILLED BANDS
Past American Coin Silver Forum topics/threads worth a look
WEV's American Silversmith's Family Tree Project Smith's Index

How to Post Photos REGISTER (click here)

customtitle open  SMP Silver Salon Forums
tlineopen  American Silver before sterling
tline3open  An Odd Bird-Back to Chew On

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

ForumFriend SSFFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   An Odd Bird-Back to Chew On
Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-09-2009 01:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote




Here is a fairly recent purchase. At first glance, from the front, I would say it is an English teaspoon. This bright-cut design, with the oval reserve set down from the tip, is unusual in American silver but pretty common in English. However, it is a bird-back, more common in American silver than English. Also, it has a single maker's mark set down near the bowl, not the top marking you would expect on an English spoon of the late George III period. The mark is rubbed, but even so you can tell that the style of the letters is crude in comparison to most English maker's marks. As to the actual mark, my best guess is P (or B or R) G ? It is a complete guess, but none of the listed known bird-back makers seems to fit.

Then again, maybe it is Provincial English or Irish?

Any ideas?

Brent

IP: Logged

argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 01-09-2009 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It was common for American silversmiths to import items and mark them as their own or have the item marked in England. There are Revere teapots floating around that are of English manufacture. Quite a few smiths followed this practice. Even back then manufacturing costs was of concern. I do not know if this is the case or not with your spoon. What I have relied upon, rightly or not, is the gauge of the silver. It seems as though English silver was always of a heavier gauge than that of American Smiths.

Really nice spoon with a somewhat worn bird but still quite nice.

IP: Logged

agphile

Posts: 798
Registered: Apr 2008

iconnumber posted 01-09-2009 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agphile     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The spoon doesn't look English to me. I can't spot a likely English candidate for the mark, but that means nothing either way. More to the point, as you say, birdbacks are less common here, and this particular bird is not one of those (dove and olive branch, or hen and chicks) that we are most familiar with. I don't think I have ever come across an English spoon that combines bright- cutting with a picture back. And on an English spoon I would have expected the bright cutting to continue round the top of the stem, leaving just the cartouche for any owner's inscription. On this spoon the top of the stem appears to have been left deliberately blank, presumably to accommodate the triangle of initials which, by the late 18th century, was no longer the norm for inscriptions here.

On balance it seems to me unlikely that a provincial English silversmith (or, indeed a London one)had access to a rare die for the birdback and was receiving a detailed enough order from America to adjust the decoration of the spoon so as to leave room for a different style of initialing.

IP: Logged

Brent

Posts: 1507
Registered: May 99

iconnumber posted 01-14-2009 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Brent     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you both for your input! I know that quite a bit of silver was imported into the colonies and the early US; how it was marked is the big mystery. Did it come in with full English hallmarks, or were exported pieces not hallmarked, and left for American retailers to mark? There must be some sort of evidence either way, but as far as I know nothing definite has come to light.

That said, the point about picture back and bright cutting on the same spoon is well taken, and not something I had thought of before. The spoon is a bit light for English, though I have encountered some lightweight English spoons in my time.

Still, the engraving style is unusual for the US. Perhaps it was the work of a recent immigrant craftsman?

Thanks again,

Brent

IP: Logged

argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 01-14-2009 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This has little to do with your original post but just another west coast auction site 'you have got to be kidding me' birdback spoon.



I have no idea who the maker was but definitely question the authenticity of the decoration.

IP: Logged

agleopar

Posts: 850
Registered: Jun 2004

iconnumber posted 01-14-2009 07:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agleopar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Could the mark be HG, (Henry Giraud), though I can not find an image of his mark. I also think the engraving is very fine for the states but a recent immigrant to NYC might explain that...?

I too saw the "bird back" billed as early US and after a few seconds of gum chewing decided that double silver plate AA circa 1930 with a die struck bird and machine engraving explained it. I hope nothing was spent on it, I did not follow it.

IP: Logged

argentum1

Posts: 602
Registered: Apr 2004

iconnumber posted 01-14-2009 09:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for argentum1     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I emailed the owner to suggest it might not be what they thought but was sort of told to mind my own business. I do not think it sold. I book marked it to see if it sold or not but have not checked back as yet.

IP: Logged

All times are ET

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a


1. Public Silver Forums (open Free membership) - anyone with a valid e-mail address may register. Once you have received your Silver Salon Forum password, and then if you abide by the Silver Salon Forum Guidelines, you may start a thread or post a reply in the New Members' Forum. New Members who show a continued willingness to participate, to completely read and abide by the Guidelines will be allowed to post to the Member Public Forums.
Click here to Register for a Free password

2. Private Silver Salon Forums (invitational or $ donation membership) - The Private Silver Salon Forums require registration and special authorization to view, search, start a thread or to post a reply. Special authorization can be obtained in one of several ways: by Invitation; Annual $ Donation; or via Special Limited Membership. For more details click here (under development).

3. Administrative/Special Private Forums (special membership required) - These forums are reserved for special subjects or administrative discussion. These forums are not open to the public and require special authorization to view or post.


| Home | Order | The Guide to Evaluating Gold & Silver Objects | The Book of Silver
| Update BOS Registration | Silver Library | For Sale | Our Wants List | Silver Dealers | Speakers Bureau |
| Silversmiths | How to set a table | Shows | SMP | Silver News |
copyright © 1993 - 2022 SM Publications
All Rights Reserved.
Legal & Privacy Notices