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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 G. Thurland? A very nice ladle
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| Author | Topic: G. Thurland? A very nice ladle |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 01-29-2009 11:24 AM
  
[19-1030] Hello all, Here is a mystery for everyone, including me. This large 8 3/8" gravy ladle is marked G. THURLAND, as shown. The mark is odd in that there are clearly two strikes, but I think they are of the same mark and not an overstrike. The two halves of the H, though slightly askew, do match. Anyway, who is G. Thurland? I can't find any reference to anyone of that name in American sources. The ladle itself is quite heavy, and is unusual in having a gilt bowl interior that appears to be of the period. The finless fiddle style is most common in the US from about 1805-1820, with some regional holdouts. However, I can't recall seeing another American piece of flatware with gilding that can be dated prior to about 1850. So, is it American? I have my doubts, but if not, where is it from? The lettering does resemble that on some Irish provincial pieces, and a UK / Empire origin would not be a bad guess. Any ideas? Brent IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-29-2009 11:38 AM
Nice ladle. Do you think the punch was broken? IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 01-29-2009 12:40 PM
Sometimes punches were not struck evenly. Possibly the first strike was uneven, the left portion failing to register completely and the smith tilted the punch to add the missing portion with a second strike (it appears that the ends are deeper than the parts that overlap) and didn't quite match it up! IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11565 |
posted 01-29-2009 12:47 PM
I feel that swarter has made the right call. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4127 |
posted 01-29-2009 01:05 PM
Thurland is an unusual surname in the US. There is a possibility this is from the Brooklyn/NYC area. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 01-30-2009 08:00 AM
Thank you for you input! Though the die for the mark may be broken, I am more inclined to agree with Swarter; two strikes of the same mark. I am curious; what is the oldest piece of American flatware known with period gilding? I had never thought about it much before I got this piece, but I don't think I have seen any very early pieces. I have seen many early gilt German pieces, and Georgian mustard ladles often have gilt bowls. Also, the size of this piece is unusual; quite large for gravy, but too small for soup. Brent IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 01-30-2009 08:22 AM
As an after thought, swarter's point does make good sense. If the die was broken, it would have been easier to line up the letters. IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 03-12-2010 04:11 PM
Here's a likely candidate for the maker of this ladle: George Thurland who was born in St Croix in about 1780. He appears in the 1855 St Croix Census as a widower at Queens Cross St 39, Christiansted, St Croix with the occupation goldsmith & silversmith. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 03-12-2010).] IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 03-12-2010 07:08 PM
Very likely correct - nice find, Bascall. I believe this is the first silver I have seen from the Virgin Islands. Thanks for posting the ID. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4127 |
posted 03-12-2010 08:10 PM
From a report on the Virgin Island Discovery Group exhibition VI Family Tree and History Exhibit, March 18, 2007. "Take the George Thurland family group. Anne Louise Thurland took me three displays over to see how Melvin A McGregor was related to her maternal grandmother. (Charles Archibald McGregor was one Captain of the now famous sloop, The Vigilant.) She was careful to emphasize that the Thurlands “had come from a Free Colored family since the 1780’s.” There was George Thurland (1866),a silversmith whose crafted silver spoon is still in a collection in Copenhagen; Peter Gregory Thurland, and John George Thurland (B. 1932) a Goldsmith, and Silversmith; George Thurland and W. Thurland of the 1990 Smithsonian Folklife Festival; Albert “Bertie” Thurland, whose widely recognized skills (“Thurland’s Cabinet Shop) still enshrine No. 1 Hospital Street, in Christiansted Town." From Virgin Island Family Studies George Thurland was born on St. Croix in about 1780 and was baptized in the Anglican Church. He was married by the Pastor of the Danish Lutheran Church on 4 July 1820, to Frances Owen, of the Anglican Church. IP: Logged |
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Brent Posts: 1507 |
posted 03-13-2010 07:13 PM
WOW! Very cool information. In my own limited on-line reseach I did turn up the Thurland furntiture maker on St. Croix, but never found George. It appears he had quite a long career; I imagine there is a bit of his silver floating around. Stylistically my ladle ought to be around 1810, which would be reasonably early in his career. Also, it sounds like he may have been a free person of color? Or am I reading this incorrectly? Brent IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 03-15-2010 12:24 PM
quote:
In the records that I have seen,there is very little mention of race, but that may be because there were other schedules covering that information that are not easily accessible to me. I found one form only that mentions field negroes, and there are no Thurlands shown in it. By the way, just for information's sake, the mark used on the spoon in the National Museet in Copenhagen is described as having George Thurland's initials, the letters "St," and an inscribed cross. [This message has been edited by bascall (edited 03-15-2010).] IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2365 |
posted 03-15-2010 10:52 PM
In an earlier post in the thread Brent asked the interesting question when was gilding first used on American flatware. I have also wondered about that and also about its use on hollowware. By the 1830s and 40s I think a gold wash on mustard pots and on various types of spoons was not uncommon. Before that time period its use does seem to be rare. Perhaps it was used in those situations where the gold was needed to protect the surface, rather for the look it created. [This message has been edited by ahwt (edited 03-15-2010).] IP: Logged |
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bascall Posts: 1629 |
posted 10-13-2013 01:28 AM
I've just had a look at these records: St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands, Slave Plantation and Town Head Tax Lists, 1772-1821, and for what it is worth, George Thurland is consistently listed as a white person from 1796 to 1818. In 1810 and 1818, he is listed as a slave owner. IP: Logged |
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avalata Posts: 64 |
posted 11-25-2023 03:29 PM
George Thurland Sr. was listed as "free coloured" in his marriage documents in 1820, and one of his sons is in a photo and is clearly black or mixed race. This information is in "Sukker og Guld" by Bent Knie-Andersen. He has two known marks, and I've just found both. The are GT in a plain rectangular punch, generally struck twice on teaspoons that look like John Selph's, and the full name mark in this string. Both are shown (from a distance) and described in the book cited above. Best, Cliff IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11565 |
posted 11-25-2023 04:28 PM
That is great to find both marks. Good work. I am sure everyone would appreciate photos. [This message has been edited by Scott Martin (edited 11-25-2023).] IP: Logged |
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avalata Posts: 64 |
posted 11-25-2023 08:54 PM
Will do - just need to do a little cleaning. I also got several pieces by another St. Croix silversmith (I. Wescoat) in the same lots, descended in the same Virgin Islands family. IP: Logged |
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avalata Posts: 64 |
posted 11-26-2023 12:21 PM
Interestingly, George Thurland, Sr. is listed as white in the marriage record of 1820, according to "Tradesmen of St. Croix" by Karen C. Thurland. I suppose we'll never be sure of the right answer, if two experts staring at the same document came to such different conclusions. However, if George Sr. was consistently listed as white elsewhere, I suppose we'd have to go with that. Best, IP: Logged |
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