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 American Silver before sterling
 TANKARD QUESTION INFO NEEDED Cornelius Vanderburgh?
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| Author | Topic: TANKARD QUESTION INFO NEEDED Cornelius Vanderburgh? |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-02-2010 02:54 AM
  
[26-2022] This tankard is very old and I know very little about silver but a lot about computers. The research I've done would attribute it to Cornelius Vanderburgh. It's almost 5 inches tall and weighs around 13 ounces. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 08-03-2010 04:36 AM
Hello to you, Nice item it is,dutch name CvB, question from my side is; is this a American silversmith or a Dutch silversmith who settled in the USA. Can you tell us what you already know about CvB and and also if the item is 18th or even 17th century? Like you explained you even bought early spoons, do they also have CvB silver marks (is it one silver lot which you have bought. It's good to see such old pieces, not cleaned, it gives charme. Nice to have by the way! I wait for some reaction from your side and be curious for the information. I think each one of us want to know the value of pieces he/she owns, but of course emotional value can also be interesting. I found this piece beautiful and perhaps you can show the other pieces some day. Success andre (silverhunter) from the Netherlands. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-03-2010 01:04 PM
quote: Silverhunter, This is the mark of Cornelius Van der Burgh (1653 - <1699), born in New York of parents also born there. He was a member of the New York Dutch community which produced a number of excellent silversmiths, whose work is highly valued by collectors and museums. Jewelsalot, as you know, we do not give valuations, but is is safe to say that, as an undocumented example of his work, it is an important find, and congratulations are in order. Hypothetically of course, if this were mine (don't I wish), I would either keep it as an investment, or donate to a museum. If I were to keep it, I would also have it cleaned by a professional conservator. An older thread on a similar find (Samuel Minott) of an old tankard contains some suggestions on how to handle or treat a found object such as this. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 08-03-2010 02:48 PM
Thanks a lot,Swarter for your quick reaction and good information. I also have found some information; - There is also another silvermark with the shape of a hart and the following initials in it: - In the book "American Silversmiths and their marks" is at page 259 also the next information ; I understand that silver items (17th centuryt)will be very expensive and it is nice to get more information of the silversmith/period/history etc. Greetings Silverhunter. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 08-03-2010 03:15 PM
The writer of the book is G.C.Ensko. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-03-2010 03:36 PM
At least two similar tankards are in museum collections: the Sarah Lyman at the Brooklyn Museum and the more elaborate Augustus Jay in the Museum of the City of New York. Vanderburgh's finest work is considered to be the Sanders beaker of 1685 at Yale. As far as I know, he has only been assigned the two marks. I would echo swarter's recommendations. IP: Logged |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-03-2010 05:45 PM
To answer the question of other pieces, yes I bought a Silver Beaker along with the tankard. They have the same hallmarks but the beaker has more marked and a monogram see photo's IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 08-03-2010 07:37 PM
It would be important to have it examined by someone familiar with Vanderburgh's work. I believe that his mark was one of the ones counterfeited in the early years of the 20th Century. Counterfeit diestamps -- Does each one come with a blank spoon? If real it is an important find. Fred IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-04-2010 11:28 PM
JEWELSALOT, can you post a picture of the lower handle connection on the tankard? And a side view of the whole? IP: Logged |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-06-2010 03:20 AM
Here are the pics of the side view of the tankard, any info is much appreciated. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 08-06-2010 09:41 AM
I would definitely polish these pieces. Hand polish not machine, but they deserve to shine. Not look like a bunch of s*** because that is what it is - dirty. And dirt is everything but patina. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-06-2010 10:37 AM
As I suspected when I asked, the tankard appears to be a married piece -- an existing lid and handle added to a new/old body. The handle curve has been re-formed in an attempt to make it fit and its attachment is too low on the body, resulting in the unusual squat proportions. It is hard to see, but it also looks like the lip of the body has been flared out to accept the lid. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-06-2010 12:32 PM
Sorry to say, but I do agree. In this view, it is obvious that the handle is too large for that body. I have to question the cup (which I didn't see after it was added to the thread) and without further clarifying illustrations, the spoons, which were suspect from the beginning, as well. Deep tarnish can cover a multitude of sins - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. An unfortunate lot. IP: Logged |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-06-2010 08:35 PM
So the modifacition were done for? I don't understand, your saying somone switched parts around from historical pieces? Why? If your thinking it was to try to drive the price up with deception think for another answer. They were sold to me way under scrap. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-06-2010 09:03 PM
The person who sold them to you may have been many steps past the point of creation with no inkling of their origin. The tankard was "born" from the ashes of several other pieces (as was the cup in all likelihood). This is nothing new; such recreations began in the late 19th and continued throughout the 20th century, sometimes innocently and sometimes not. As they stand, they are excellent exemplars of the practice and institutions like Yale, Winterthur, and the Museum of the City of New York would be pleased to receive them to that purpose. Or you could just clean up the tankard and enjoy a pot of cider. IP: Logged |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-06-2010 10:55 PM
I'll melt them in the morning, thanks everyone for the info I've received. I only ended up with mixed opinions and 1 fact. They get refined into silver I'll know all thee is to know about and won't need to bother the experts of this wonderful site. Thanks to all! If I could afford cider for the tankard to drink with I would probably be doing so, giving my knowledge of estate jewelry to others. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-07-2010 01:06 AM
Only a fool would destroy history to assuage their own ego. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 08-07-2010 04:21 AM
and no reason to get upset because someone have another opinion. I have not evaluated - please remember that. Cannot, because US silver is not my business. IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 08-07-2010 04:36 AM
I should keep them a life, pieces with original marks from the 17th century with a repaired handle? Why? The reason could be that the original formerly could be broken off, we talk about around 400 years old silver. Be proud to have these kind of silver items and the spoons you showed have also their ages. You did a good job to buy them and most collectors will know the value of the collected items they have bought. For insurance etc. These one's you couldn't replaced by others. There are a lot of repaired items in Museum I wonder what's the difference? It has also emotional value that's what I reacted sooner in this topic! Take I good discussion please!!!!! IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 08-07-2010 06:34 AM
I agree that it would be wrong to scrap these and there is still scholarly interest in them, and they are still completely functional and would be fun to have for drinking out of. I'm sure someone on this forum would give you scrap for them (see the items for sale thread). IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 08-07-2010 10:59 AM
It is criminal that a piece with obvious history should be destroyed for the weight of the precious metal. There is no love of the art in such action and the monetary gain does not compensate the loss to the history of the craft. It saddens me to hear JEWELSALOT's callous regard for these pieces of American history. Fred IP: Logged |
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Scott Martin Forum Master Posts: 11520 |
posted 08-07-2010 08:13 PM
Well said Fredz. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-07-2010 10:02 PM
Indeed. IP: Logged |
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jersey Posts: 1203 |
posted 08-07-2010 10:27 PM
Jewelsalot ! Balls in your court! Jersey IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 08-07-2010 11:07 PM
A Cornelius Vanderburgh tankard is in the Brooklyn Museum and interestingly it was given to them by Stephen G.C. Ensko. This tankard is marked on the side of the tankard, but it does contain several replacement parts. The write-up does not indicate who made or when the replacements were made. Another Vanderburgh tankard is shown on page 208 of the book "Elegant Plate Three Centuries of Precious Metals in New York City" edited by Deborah Dependahl Waters. This tankard is 7 ½" high and weighs 30.50 oz. It is marked on both the lid and the body. In this book Cornelius Vander Burch appears to be the preferred spelling of the silversmith's name. The Elegant Plate Book has quite a number of examples of tankards from this time period as this was a popular purchase of those of the period that had acquired some wealth. Jewelsalot you can see for yourself the differences in the body of these examples to your tankard. Jewelalot I recommend that you contact both the Brooklyn and the Museum of the City of New York to see if they are interested in examining your tankard, particularly the lid. The advice that tarnish can hide important defects is certainly true. It also works that other way as I have found several nice examples of early silversmith's work when the seller simply did not clean the marks on the item. This has been an interesting thread. IP: Logged |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-10-2010 08:09 AM
I'm very sorry for starting off on a bad foot; obviously I will never scrap these pieces. I just have one question, in ones option, is this a tankard from 1690-1750 which was repaired, a fake/new creation to deceive, or an original piece. IP: Logged |
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Hose_dk Posts: 400 |
posted 08-10-2010 04:27 PM
Most likely original. No reason to make a copy without selling it as an original = i.e. get the profit. The marks are - as I read others valuation - look right (I have no idea myself) it is not common to make false marks. And when making false marks - the profit question again. Why let others benefit? In Denmark around first half 1900 a lot of copies was made - originally sold as copy. Marks that looked like, but in fact where the producers initials. These items sometimes are sold as original. because in 3rd or 4th sale no one remembers. But still these marks are documented. Hanau is an example also. Use of old (copy) marks - not to cheat, but to make look-alike. The top (lid) on your item, looks - to me - as a dish. But others here have more knowledge than this Dane. By the way - come forward and get rid of that suspicion that you have started up with. IP: Logged |
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Dale Posts: 2132 |
posted 08-10-2010 05:08 PM
The time, money and effort required to make a fake would tend to rule out this as a fake. So, most likely it is an original piece that had some strange repairs done a long time ago. IP: Logged |
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JEWELSALOT Posts: 14 |
posted 08-10-2010 06:06 PM
The beaker is all original then, no repairs that I can see. But whats up with the other names on the bottom? Isaac IV and 2 more scratched into the bottom? Were these the owners at one time? IP: Logged |
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FredZ Posts: 1070 |
posted 08-10-2010 08:11 PM
The inscriptions could indicate that the item may have been a wedding gift or passed on to heirs. There might be a number of reasons to have various initials. These initials are as important to the piece as is the maker's mark. They are part of the history of the item. Perhaps one day documentation of Vanderburgh's day book or a will that might designate these pieces as part of someone's inheritance. As important as the tankard might be.... I love the small beaker even better. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 08-10-2010 09:54 PM
So the beaker has been carefully cleaned and equally carefully inspected? Both pieces strike me, from the images provided, as fabrications -- created for whatever reason as yet, or perhaps ever, unknown -- but I would never offer a definitive opinion without having the work in hand. As to some previous comments, if I may: in a different lifetime, I was a pretty fair letterpress printer and conservator of books. After a similar conversation at the Clark Library about forgeries in the book world, I tried a little experiment. For around $250, I acquired, over a few months, half a dozen partial pieces of a California pamphlet that would run several thousand in complete condition. I went to work and in several days put together such a copy. I will not go into details, but suffice to say it had appropriate bookseller notations, a bookplate from a well-known private and now dispersed collection of Californiana, and all the other indications of a provenanced journey down to my "finding it" at an estate sale. I will not say who I offered it to, but it got vetted by three major private collectors and two public institutions with offers that would have turned a nice profit. All this is simply to say that with sufficient technical knowledge and careful judgment, one can do very nicely assembling history for retail. And please understand that I am making no accusations nor intimations by this little tale, simply commenting on the possibilities that present themselves when desire clouds discrimination. And in case you are wondering, I disassembled my handiwork and gave the remnants to a university study collection. IP: Logged |
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ahwt Posts: 2334 |
posted 08-11-2010 07:31 AM
The Brewster Chair is an excellent example of how a fake can be made by a skillful craftsperson, placed in the stream of commerce and finally end in an established museum. One's investigation can be distorted if you want to believe that something is real and wanting it to be real is often based on the price of the object. In the silver world the Cleveland Museum of Art, in their Catalogue of American Silver by Phillip M. Johnston, reports in detail their investigation of silver given to them by Hollis French in the early 1900s. The investigation revealed that many items (about 20%) in Mr. French's collection had been altered with the addition of spurious American silversmith marks. Either they had not been originally marked by the actual silversmith and a fake mark was added, or the original marks had been removed and replaced with fake marks. Based on the number of times fakes occurred the creation of a fake die appears to be a simple matter. The results of this museum's investigation are very sobering. IP: Logged |
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vathek Posts: 966 |
posted 08-11-2010 08:09 AM
For my 2c the inscription on the beaker looks pretty clean and sharp for a piece that old and I agree with Wev that something doesn't quite add up and an expert would be needed. Also need to keep in mind that these items, if real, were not made in 'disposable society' times and an item, if damaged, would be repaired and restored to usability, and perhaps also for sentimental reasons, tho the workmanship may not always be the best. IP: Logged |
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swarter Moderator Posts: 2920 |
posted 08-11-2010 12:11 PM
There are also instances of actual punches found at estate sales being acquired by unscrupulous individuals who buy unmarked pieces and add marks with those punches. There are many examples of English silver in which legitimate marks have been cut out of lesser or damaged pieces and "cut in" to later pieces or those by less well known makers. I myself have seen examples of spoons altered in shape to earlier styles, and English examples in which all marks but the maker's mark had been "erased" and offered as American. It is well to be critical in one's examinations of "newly discovered" works, and to remain skeptical until proven authentic. That said, I remain skeptical of some (not all) of the Cleveland Museum's claims of fakery that are based solely on analysis of the silver content of the object. IP: Logged |
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Kimo Posts: 1627 |
posted 08-11-2010 09:02 PM
You have what may be some objects that are either marriages of some pieces of very rare objects with later repairs, or some objects that are pure fabrications from some old silver parts meant to deceive at some point in time but when you bought them for scrap the deception was in the past and the seller did not know what they were pretending to be other than some heavy weight of silver worth something for its bullion value. As others have said, people can give initial opinions on this forum but they are only based on some relatively low resolution photos that one is limited to on the internet. There is no substitute for an expert being able to hold something in their hands for a few days and doing comparisons with known real objects by this maker and doing some tests. I would urge you to get in touch with such experts and have them examine these objects in person. Until that happens, there is no way to know exactly what you have. If you need advice on who such experts might be, the kind folks on this forum could help you locate someone in your part of the country. [This message has been edited by Kimo (edited 08-11-2010).] IP: Logged |
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silverhunter Posts: 704 |
posted 08-27-2010 04:51 PM
Short information about a certain Cornelis van der Burg, he was a goldsmith and became a decan of the Gold-and Silver gild at 19 december 1588. Perhaps he was family relatif to the one which is mentioned in this topic? IP: Logged |
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