posted 06-09-2008 05:42 PM            

I am posting my first question to S M P Silver Salon Forums.

I have collected nutmeg graters for 35 years and have special interest for American silver examples.

Many silver nutmeg graters were never marked and I am in question of my recent acquisition by "Sayer & Richards" of NYC 1800 ~ 1813. Although I do NOT question the age of this small silver nutmeg grater, my concern is that the maker’s mark is unlike any other hallmark that I have seen and that under magnification, it seems that the bedding (back portion) of the mark consists of parallel vertical (cut??) lines rather than “??stamped??”[SEE image #1 & #3].

Why would there be parallel lines?
Why is there a halo line (mark) above the hallmark?[SEE image #3]. There also is a non-alignment of the features within the mark; is this due to a double stamping with the marking tool?[SEE all images, but seen best in Image #2].

I seek to verify the mark as genuinely that of “Sayre & Richards” and would welcome any suggestions how I might do this.

Thanks
Jim K.

P.S. I have added a fourth image containing known "Sayre & Richards" hallmarks from three public sources.

P.P.S. I HAVE ADDED A FIFTH IMAGE OF THE NUTMEG GRATER. I have no question regarding the age of this item. The opposing hinges making the lids open in opposite directions is a rather unusual feature. Construction methods are first half nineteenth century, most likely first quarter: 1800 ~ 1825.

[CLOSED MEASURES 1 1/4" LONG / 1" DIAM.]

posted 06-09-2008 11:01 PM            

quote:

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200224480022
SAYRE & RICHARDS Coin Silver PORRINGER

This Early American coin silver porringer is a fine example of this classic form. Made by the partnership of John Sayre and Thomas Richards of New York City, it measures approximately 4-1/8" in diameter and is about 1-1/2" tall. The key hole handle is typical of the American form and is marked on the back S & R in a rounded rectangular punch. There is a feather script monogram G B W on the front of the handle and a later presentation inscription Francis Philip Nash August 14th on the front of the bowl. This porringer is in excellent condition with no dents or apparent repairs. Early Sayre family coin silver is always very collectible, and this porringer will make an excellent addition to any collection of early Sayre family silver!

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posted 06-10-2008 12:06 AM            

Above is the mark from Belden for Sayre and Richards which I think is the same as your first mark. I think the ovals are different in height from the one on your mark your letters appear to me to be thicker in the middle portions.

Would it be possible to see the grater?

posted 06-10-2008 08:19 AM            

Any thoughts?

posted 06-10-2008 09:54 AM            

The back ground of the punch is the surface that the letters are cut into on the punch and usually it is polished flat but some times it is left with file marks that would give the parallel lines. It seems though that another possibility is that the area where the mark is was filed very roughly and it was marked over the file marks, which did not disappear but remained (in line with the file marks out side the punched area.

The halo could be evidence of a double strike like in image #2.

I feel that from what I can tell from the images (and I can’t tell that much) that there is nothing out of the ordinary with any of them. It seems that often the simple realities of physical work are confused by folks who have never seen it done. By that I mean that it is not rocket science but if one has not seen it it tends to be over analyzed.

The question of thick vs. thin letters is a great example – the same punch struck lightly or heavily and then the struck mark is hammered either lightly or heavily and then polished lightly or...and throw in 200 years of wear, you get 6 different looking marks (thin, fat, full, flat letters etc.). Throw in double strikes (very easy to do) and also maybe there is more than one punch in the workshop...

Yes fake punches can be made but is this so valuable that one would go to the time, trouble and expense? One last thing is that different levels of work were done at different times and a smith in NYC being paid top dollar might have more resources to have more punches and do better work than his provincial peers.

posted 06-10-2008 10:27 AM            

Thanks for a silversmith's view about the mark. What about the porringer itself -- post 1813 work?

As to why go to the trouble of making up such a die? There is a lot of unmarked coin silver around but if the unmarked silver were struck with such an early mark then the silver could become worth 10 to 100+ times more then an unmarked piece.

posted 06-10-2008 11:16 AM            

Should've added, I'm not asserting there's anything wrong with these pieces, just pointing out a case in which there was....

posted 06-10-2008 10:26 PM            

So; Scott martin; What is wrong with the porringer to make it not be of the period 1800 ~ 1813? Just wondering.

posted 06-11-2008 02:50 AM            

When I saw the initials into the porringer I doubt to see two initials for two names, like BDR and GTR and a lot of scratches between these letters.The one who did made these ones was no expert. Because the porringer is so extremely in good condition I have my doubt about his age. The key hole handle and the bowl of the porringer gives to me a reaction that it isn't a totally silver object, but a silvered or re-silvered porringer.

I good be wrong but that's my opinion.

It was a interesting reaction Agleopar my compliment and FWG also thanks for reaction good to know all the facts.

posted 06-11-2008 09:31 AM            

The “Silver in the Americans” book is heavily discounted on the internet and is well worth buying. Perhaps the early discounting is a sign of the economy of today.

The nutmeg grater never gained the popularity in the U.S. that the porringer did, either during the time period that they were actually used or later during the reproduction stage.

The porringer makes a great ice cream bowl, but I feel that the ubiquitous reproduction of this form has taken away its mystery.

One question on porringers - were the handles cast?

Also thanks Jim for posting a picture of your lovely nutmeg grater. And also to silverhunter for a picture of your lovely nutmeg grater.

posted 06-11-2008 10:10 AM            

quote:

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So; Scott martin; What is wrong with the porringer to make it not be of the period 1800 ~ 1813? Just wondering.

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quote:

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I don't know but something suggests...

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posted 06-11-2008 02:31 PM            

The Francis Phillip Nash whose genealogy you give does seem like a good enough possibility for the person whose name is engraved on this piece.

My own guess about this piece is that it could be a reproduction commissioned for a family member.

posted 06-12-2008 07:39 AM            

I am sure that readers are aware of the two books that were made in association to nutmeg grater exhibitions:
The Robert And Meredith Green Collection of Silver Nutmeg Graters, John D. Davis, The Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, 2002, ISBN o-87935-217-5
The English Silver Pocket Nutmeg Grate, A Collection of Fifty Examples, Elizabeth B. Miles, CW Printing Service, Cleveland, OHIO, 1966.

posted 06-12-2008 03:30 PM            

In your original inquiry about the mark on the nutmeg grater, it was clear that there were reservations about the mark. In reading through this thread a general consensus appears to remain irresolute.

Jim this is your first post and it has only been up for a few days. At the SSF the more seasoned SSF members may take their time to consider whether the mark is verifiable and will not rush to judgment. As such, it may take some time before anyone with a resolute opinion speaks up about the mark.

From time to time please check this thread for new info. And as you discover more about the mark please remember to share the info with us.

You have been collecting nutmegs for a long time so you must have some very interesting items in your collection. When time permits, please share with us some from your collection (in a new thread). Thanks.

posted 06-12-2008 03:40 PM            

I do not see anything about the porriger that would lead me to believe it was made after the early 19th century. There are radial marks that might cause one to think it was spun. The lathe was sometimes used to help finish a vessel's exterior.

I have always admired the nutmeg graters I have seen and regret passing up the oportunity to acquire and English one.

posted 06-14-2008 12:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ulysses Dietz:
I am curious about the whole idea of silver porringers as late as Sayre & Richards.

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I have seen a few key-hole handled porringers from this period appear over the years on ebay. Although I kept no records of the makers, all were well known, established makers, and I had no reason to doubt their authenticity. Those that I remember were of the typical classical bulbous form, rather than the less common straight-sided form of the one in question here. Most of the later porringers made more recently (except for reproductions) have a flat bottom, as opposed to the domed bottom of the older, hand-raised ones.