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 SMP Silver Salon Forums
 American Silver before sterling
 terminal coins on tankards
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| Author | Topic: terminal coins on tankards |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 11-26-2014 04:01 PM
  
I am wondering about the practice of using a coin at the terminal of a tankard handle (come to think of it...are there any canns with terminal coins?). Specifically -- how much can we infer from a coin? Example: I've identified a coin as a William III silver shilling from 1696. It appears on a tankard that is presumed to be 1720-1730. Does it seem likely that a silversmith would use any old shilling for such an important element of a reasonably substantial piece? Or would you assume the older date or even the coin itself had some significance? I would think that a silversmith (or the client) would choose a nice new, current coin, and in this case, one reasonable answer would be that the date of the tankard is wrong. But the silversmith would have been too young to have made it. (And I don't think the form would support the earlier date.) Surely someone has done a dissertation on this! IP: Logged |
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Fitzhugh Posts: 136 |
posted 11-26-2014 04:54 PM
Are you referencing the practice by American smiths? I find it odd they American silversmiths would utilize British coins, yet some seem to have. Funny, has anyone ever seen an American smith insert an American coin?? Must be out there, but I can't recall an example, either. IP: Logged |
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Kayvee Posts: 204 |
posted 11-26-2014 05:10 PM
Here is my input on your tankard. The date of a coin or coins incorporated into the design of a silver object does not necessarily date the object. Old coins often are used by silver makers and jewelers to add a decorative or commemorative touch. A contemporary example is the Italian jewelers Bvlgari who are well-known for incorporating ancient Roman coins in their modern jewelry designs. As for US coins, I seem to recall seeing American silver dollars incorporated into the bottom of ashtrays and of course in Western style jewelry. IP: Logged |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 11-26-2014 10:02 PM
Fitzhugh-- yes, I'm talking about American pieces. Tho' at that time, the makers would have self-identified as English. Kayvee -- that's an interesting observation. But in this case (as in others I've seen), the coin would have been only 20 or 25 years old. I'm not sure if that's old enough to have seemed as exotic as the Bulgari use of ancient coins. I'm guessing such coins, if not in actual circulation, would have seemed reasonably commonplace. But I'm just guessing. [This message has been edited by seaduck (edited 11-26-2014).] IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 11-26-2014 10:27 PM
The first thing that you must do is remove yourself from the present. We are used to abundant, sometimes bothersome amounts of coinage -- I have a small pile on the desk I'm sitting at, emptied from my pockets over the last week. In the early 18th century, you could go your entire life and never see more than a handful of actual coins and to see silver or gilt might well be the stuff of dreams. Using one as mere decoration would be a serious statement of "I'm Important." As to why they might have been used, who knows? A political statement, pro or con? An inherited coin, a legacy? A make do -- I can't cast, but here's a little pretty that will suit? A death/birth/marriage/some other memorial? I have a watch fob made with a well worn 1904 Indian head penny; not a valuable or even pretty coin, but the first cent earned by my grandfather when he was put to work at age 12. These are just some rambling thoughts. There are numerous examples of coins being used by colonial smiths in lids/handles/bowl bottoms/etc. Why, without first level documentation is anyone's guess. [This message has been edited by wev (edited 11-26-2014).] IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 11-27-2014 09:17 PM
I do not think I can add much except to say I agree with the above and by coincidence (pun not intended) I have a little 1730-40 London teaspoon that has a William the III, 1692 (I think) silver coin in the bowl. IP: Logged |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 11-28-2014 03:26 PM
I appreciate all these comments, and especially WEV's advice: "The first thing that you must do is remove yourself from the present." Good guideline! A coin in the bowl of a teaspoon is a new one for me. I'm wondering again about canns (American canns) -- has anyone ever seen a form with a fancy doodad at the terminal of the handle? Coin, grotesque, lion, whatever... But maybe the scale of the objects didn't really accommodate such things. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 11-28-2014 04:01 PM
I have never seen one and I suspect that the normal cann handle, tapering to a narrow up-curved end, would not lend itself to such. IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 11-28-2014 09:44 PM
I have not seen an antique cann with a terminal like that that I remember but I did make a large cann on commission for the master of a Hunt. He had always wanted an unaffordable old Newport RI cann and his wife who was giving it to him thought it would be nice to put a fox head as the terminal. She supplied a delicate gold fox head on a coin sized flat disk. It looked very well set in a small sized beaded wire. I can't promise an image but I'll try.... IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 11-29-2014 03:49 PM
Cann with fox head at the terminal:  IP: Logged |
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seaduck Posts: 350 |
posted 11-29-2014 04:15 PM
Agleopar -- that is wonderful! If it occurred to you to do such a creative thing, I would have thought it might have occurred to another silversmith 300 years ago. But maybe the culture was more into replicating standard forms. IP: Logged |
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wev Moderator Posts: 4121 |
posted 11-29-2014 07:49 PM
quote: Keep in mind that we probably have something less than 30% of the silver made in the 17th and 18th centuries still intact. Who can say what interesting and uncommon forms have disappeared entirely? IP: Logged |
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agleopar Posts: 850 |
posted 11-29-2014 08:50 PM
Thank you Seaduck I had fun making it because a proper cann is not called for much these days. I'm sure that, like all things in silver, a cann with a coin has been done and more than once but as Wev says we are missing the bulk of what was made. IP: Logged |
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